Evidence of meeting #9 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was seals.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

David Bevan  Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Aquaculture Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Ken Jones  Senior Fisheries Management Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Norbert Kalisch  Director General, European Union, North and West Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs
Robert Clark  Director, European Union Division, Department of Foreign Affairs

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

Order.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are studying the Canadian seal hunt. We welcome our first witnesses this morning: David Bevan, the assistant deputy minister of fisheries and aquaculture management; and Ken Jones, senior fisheries management officer.

Due to the fact that we do have a technical briefing this morning, our witnesses may want to go a little bit over the 10 minutes allotted to them. We'd probably all be better off if you did that. In the meantime, I'm sure you won't mind us taking extra time for questions if you go too long.

Welcome.

9 a.m.

David Bevan Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Aquaculture Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll try to keep it as short as I possibly can to allow for questions. I'll go through the deck fairly rapidly.

The objectives for the hunt are sustainable use, conservation, humane hunting practices, and the fullest possible use of the killed animals. One thing we want to make clear is that we do not have an objective to limit the size of the population for the purposes of trying to control the ecosystem. We did have that question put to an expert panel, and they were unable to provide advice; it's far too complex a web or food chain, and we could not determine any rationale to limit the size of the population.

“Fullest possible use” is a policy we seek, but it's really dependent on markets. It's not something we are able to require, but it is an objective we would pursue, although not through regulatory means.

I think people are quite familiar with where the hunting takes place--on the front, off of Labrador, or around the Magdalen Islands. This year that wasn't the case as much. We had the hunt take place more to the north.

Looking at slide 4, we have six species of seals. The vast majority of the seals killed in the hunt are harp seals because of the large size of that population. We have TACs for hooded and grey seals as well. There are no quotas for ringed, harbour, and bearded seals, although those are taken in aboriginal subsistence hunts. The majority of the hunt takes place between March and May, with the March opening in the gulf and the April opening in the front.

In the seal hunt we have established an objective-based fish management process and also the precautionary approach. We have set conservation limits that will dictate the actions we take when those limits are reached. We also have set those limits based on the highest estimated population, around 5.5 million in 2001. That actually has gone up somewhat since that time. The population hasn't gone up but the estimate has increased to 5.8 million, I believe.

In slide 6 you'll see that we have some zones for the management of this population. The limits are noted there. The maximum observed is 5.82 million, and 70% of that gives us 4.07 million. Between 4 million and 5.8 million is a zone that we feel is quite safe to manage the population in that area. We leave debates on the TAC with the industry, and setting TAC, predominantly for socio-economic reasons, in that zone. However, should we reach lower than 4.07 million, then we would start changing the management regime to focus more heavily on conservation. That focus on conservation would further increase if we hit the buffer at 50% of the maximum, and at the end limit, 1.75 million, we would stop all hunting.

So as we move down in the population toward those limits, our focus on conservation would increase to the point where below the 50% level we would have a very significant pressure on us and on the industry to move back into the safe zone above 4.07 million.

Those are already understood by the sealing industry. They know that we would shift our focus if we got into those levels of population. I think the interest of all is to keep the hunt in the area where we have the opportunity to pursue markets, etc. That's above 4.07 million, and that's where we're trying to keep the population so that it provides the maximum yield for the industry.

In terms of consultations, every five years we have a new survey, a detailed survey of the population based on overflights, exhaustive counting of the animals, and analysis of the data. That then triggers a seal forum. The last one was in 2002, I believe. It was then because we had the last available data, but we upgraded that data last year. Last year on November 7 and 8 we had a seal forum, where we invited a large number of people from 200 groups; 100 attended. That was followed by a seal advisory committee on November 9 and 10 to deal with access and allocation issues.

The forum sets the conservation framework for the five-year plan, and the advisory committee deals with the specifics of the individual year. The advisory committee on November 9 and 10 was to deal with the plan for 2006. What we would do is have another advisory committee to go over the 2006 seal hunt, and that would be used to make changes for the 2007 hunting season.

The results of those consultations were that we set out the framework, as you saw before, with the conservation limits and the understanding of how the rules would change in the event the population fell. That was set out for the 2006 to 2010 period. We did not, however, set out a TAC for those years. We left that to the seal advisory committee to set the TAC on an individual year in conjunction with the scientific advice and whatever happened the previous year in the hunt--under or over--and what the market conditions will bear. So there'll be no multi-year TAC this time, unlike the previous plan, but there will be setting of the TAC after those consultations.

For 2006 we set the TAC at 325,000 animals, with a 10,000-animal reserve for aboriginal hunting in the Arctic and for personal use hunts. We are looking at adjusting the TAC of 10,000 for hooded seals. We should have a survey on hooded seals, and that will allow us to revise the hooded seal TAC. Having said that, the 10,000-animal TAC is not taken; hooded seals are not taken more than a few hundred animals each year. That may change in the future.

Regulatory and policy changes are being contemplated. We're looking at working with the independent veterinarians working group to determine if anything should be done in order to make the hunt even more humane than it currently is.

We're looking at new licensing criteria. We had a licence freeze in the past. That is going to be reviewed due to the fact that there have been shortages of crew to work on the sealing vessels. We're going to have to work with the industry to re-evaluate how to go about the licensing.

Vessel registration requirements for small boats are going to have to be considered. We've had a problem with hails. People are hailing late and hailing low. They may have 100 animals on board and we may be told there's 50; they only upgrade it later on. We have to deal with that so that we can have a better handle on the number of animals being killed on a daily basis.

We're going to have to consider some move on the blueback issue. We have a regulation that prevents hunting on the youngest animals--in harp seals, the whitecoats. Until they start to moult and turn into beaters, we don't have the hunt. The hooded seals actually moult in the womb the first time, and then at around a year or 18 months, while they're in the blueback stage, they're completely independent. The question is, would we change the regulations to allow some hunting on that? There are strong views on both sides of that issue. We're going to be discussing all those issues with the industry stakeholders and interested parties.

On enforcement, we have at-sea inspections from large vessels, small vessels, Zodiacs, aircraft overflights, dockside and plant inspections, vehicle inspections, observers on sealing vessels, vessel hails on a daily basis, processor and buyer receipts, and VMS for the longliners, the satellite system that tells us where the longliners are located. So we have a large investment in monitoring the hunt on an annual basis.

It is the first big fishery that takes place in Atlantic Canada, the first economic opportunity for many people, and this year it's been a very important contributor to people's bottom lines. Without this, many people would not be making a go of it this year.

Proper sealing methods are a big issue. We want to make sure that the animals are killed very quickly and humanely, that they lose consciousness irreversibly and almost instantly. We're looking at the proper use of firearms and in some cases the hakapiks and clubs. In any regulated activity, there's always some non-compliance. In 2005 we had 50 charges, for example, and about 30 charges so far in 2006, with 37 warnings.

So in terms of accusations that these are unregulated activities, that's clearly not the case. We do have numerous warnings and charges. But to put that in perspective, there were about 14,000 licences issued this year; you can see that the vast majority of participants are complying with the requirements.

In addition, we have seal hunt observation licences. There were 73 licences issued this year from 97 applications. We declined to offer licences to 24 applicants. There were 60 licences issued in 2005, and 42 in 2004, so the interest is obviously going up.

In 2006, seven Humane Society of the United States members and a Reuters freelance photographer were arrested. The investigation on that is ongoing. Charges have not yet been laid. That remains an open investigation.

In 2005, 12 unlicensed observers were fined $1,000 each after being charged and convicted.

That, Mr. Chairman, is the presentation. We're open to any questions the members may wish to pose.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

Thank you to our witnesses.

The first question will go to Mr. Matthews, for 10 minutes.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Bill Matthews Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

I won't need all that time, Mr. Chair. I have just a couple of questions.

You already answered the question I was going to ask you, about the observer situation; it's going up. But why is the number of people who want to go out there going up? Is it a money issue? Is it that the more that go out there, the more money is raised for their cause?

What is your observation on that?

9:15 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Aquaculture Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

David Bevan

I can only speculate, but clearly the pictures and the material for the websites are very important for people. If it is a big operation, obviously these groups do gather substantial sums, so I can only assume that there is a great deal of interest in observing the hunt. They have a right to be there under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and they exercise that right in order to observe the hunt, take photographs, and get material for their websites and their pamphlets, etc.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Bill Matthews Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

The McCartneys, of course, were the big media event this year. I think the whole world saw it. They were lying down, cuddling a seal.

I notice that 50 charges were laid for violations in the hunt and other things. I mean, is that acceptable? We know why they did it, but does the department accept that somebody can go and lie down on the ice, with Heather touching the baby seal and all this stuff, and not be charged?

Who gets charged if they weren't?

9:15 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Aquaculture Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

David Bevan

The regulations do require people to keep at least 10 metres away from seals.

Having said that, I think judgment is exercised. One doesn't want to provide photo opportunities that might just further the cause, not if it's not necessary, if there's no interruption of the hunt or no real problems.

I stand corrected: it has to be 10 metres away from sealing, not from the seal. So I'm not sure any regulation was broken.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Bill Matthews Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

I just wondered, like a lot other people did, how they could go out there like they did. But your comment about furthering the cause through more publicity has a lot of validity, and I accept that. I just wanted to ask that question because people in our position get asked the question many times about how they could go out there like that and not be charged.

You talked about the hooded seal population, and you went on to say that there are only a few hundred of them taken. Could you inform the committee on why there is such a low number of hooded seals taken when the TAC is much higher?

9:15 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Aquaculture Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

David Bevan

They're supposed to be taking adult animals. Adult animals are found in the water after the seals are whelped. After the week or so that they take to be weaned, the animals are then found in the water. They're just dispersed more, and difficult to harvest. I guess the market for adult animals is not as well developed as it is for harps and for other products.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Bill Matthews Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

I noted your comment about the economic value of sealing to the people who participate. You're so right; without this income, particularly this year, it would have been very difficult for a lot of people in our communities and in our fishing industry.

What's your observation on the supply to the market with the current TAC? Is the market fully subscribed to, fully supplied? Or is there any room, in your estimation or your department's estimation, for more seal products into a marketplace?

9:15 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Aquaculture Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

David Bevan

Obviously there was good demand this year, and the prices were very good, notwithstanding the size of the TAC. We set the TAC, as noted, in consultation with the industry. We are trying to set it at a level that is sustainable. We don't want to drive the population down below those conservation limits that I mentioned earlier. We also don't want to oversupply the market.

So it's a balance between sustainability and supplying the market. I think the industry has basically said that the level of TAC we have is about right for the supply of the market.

Ken, do you want to add something?

9:20 a.m.

Ken Jones Senior Fisheries Management Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Sure.

We had the seal forum in November, with industry and a lot of other groups there. I was surprised that those in the industry generally were picking the figure of 325,000 a year. They're the ones who wanted, more than anybody, a one-year TAC and to adjust it.

Just to be clear, we are harvesting above a sustainable yield level now. That could be in the range of 200,000 to 250,000 seals, depending on the harvest by Greenland. So we are taking more seals, and we are reducing the population, but that falls within that objective-based management framework, where above 70% we can harvest more aggressively. Everyone knows that we're harvesting more aggressively now.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Bill Matthews Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

I have just an observation, and perhaps a question on that, to finish my questioning.

As I understand it, from what I've read, your department says that a herd of 2.2 million animals is sustainable. I may be off a bit, but I know it's somewhere around 2 million. Your last survey showed there were 5.6 million or 5.8 million animals. So I'm losing you somewhat on this sustainability thing.

If a herd is sustainable at 2.2 million animals, and it's now at 5.6 million or 5.8 million, and we're taking 325,000 or 350,000--of course, to that you have to add the natural mortality rates and other things--it would seem to me there's no question about whether or not this amount of take would affect the sustainability of the herd.

9:20 a.m.

Senior Fisheries Management Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Ken Jones

Yes, but let's be clear; we went from a model in the past of replacement yield, where each year we'd look at that number and gauge the thing, to a model where, when seals were at record highs, we'd give a higher-than-replacement yield level. So technically we're above the sustainable level of harvest now, but we're going to do it in a range.

We know that the population rate now is the maximum it's ever known, at 5.82 million, so we know that we can harvest more with a degree of safety. We use two factors for safety. We use an 80% probability that it will be within that range in our science--that's the precautionary approach--and we use this benchmark. When the population falls to 70%, we're now going to set the level of harvest at a level that will bring it back above that 70%.

What sealers know is that the higher the population is, the more they can technically harvest in a year. That's why they're cautious about 325,000. If we wanted to be truly sustainable, we might have a harvest actually in the area of 250,000, but it's 325,000 now. It's that aggressiveness we can use above the 70% benchmark.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

Mr. Simms, there are about three minutes left.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

Okay.

First of all, it's good to see you again; it's nice to be back.

I recently had the honour of going to Paris to deal with the parliamentary council. I told them that we have good regulations when it comes to the sealers, but they seem to be of the theory that it's widespread, that it's a hunt that takes place over a wide area across the Atlantic coast. I told them basically there are two areas, the front and of course the gulf.

Basically, I'm asking you to add to my argument.

9:20 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Aquaculture Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

David Bevan

It's clear that it takes place on the front and in the gulf. It's an area that we can monitor because of the use of aircraft, helicopters, etc. We know how many animals are taken as a result of the fact that we have good working relationships with the buyers and with the processors, etc. We have a good handle on that.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

What has changed recently? What have you done recently to enhance that regulation?

9:20 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Aquaculture Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

David Bevan

As a result of controls in all other fisheries, we have vessel monitoring systems on all the larger vessels. The longliners are the ones that take the large quantities of seals. The added feature there now is that we know exactly where they all are, so it's not something that we have to determine through overflights or going to find them. We know where the vessels are, we know where they're concentrating, and we can send our enforcement and monitoring teams to those locations.

That's the change in recent years.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

Some of the other numbers were way out of whack. They said there was a high degree of “struck and loss”--or is that the correct term?

9:20 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Aquaculture Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

David Bevan

Struck and loss would assume that animals are hit, presumably through firearms, and then lost in the water. Obviously that's not what sealers are about. There's no percentage there. They need to catch the animal, they need to kill the animal, and they need to retrieve it. That would occur if there was hunting in open areas or hunting on small pans, but I'm not sure that's been something we've observed.

Do you have anything you want to add, Ken?

9:25 a.m.

Senior Fisheries Management Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Ken Jones

People who oppose the hunt like to use figures from the past in the high Arctic and the Greenland hunt, in open seas, colder water, where animals will sink quickly and animals are shot in the water. Most of our animals are killed on the ice, or the vast majority of them are. For ones that are clubbed, you're obviously there, and for ones on the ice, the chances of a kill are much better. We've had estimates in the order of 2% or less for clubbed animals and 5% or less for shot animals.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

I guess my time is up.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy

Thank you, Mr. Simms.

Monsieur Roy and Monsieur Blais are splitting their time.

Monsieur Roy.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Roy Bloc Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll ask two brief questions, then turn the floor over to Mr. Blais, who is more concerned by the question than I am.

If I understood correctly, you said that the seal population in Greenland was approximately 5.82 million, but that there had been an increase since those figures were provided.