Fisheries Committee on Feb. 14th, 2008

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Minister and your staff, for being here.

I just have a couple of questions that I'd like to ask. I don't have any small craft harbours in my riding and I don't have any offshore fishery, but I do have some aquaculture operations, and I do have, in the Saint John River system, a significant interest in the wild Atlantic salmon. I guess I'm trying to reconcile those two positions on aquaculture and the wild Atlantic salmon.

I know that aquaculture, as we've talked about before, represents a significant opportunity for our region. I think it's one that we need to explore. So my first question, is how are we making out on moving forward on some kind of aquaculture agreement and recognizing the importance of that industry? The second thing is, how do we reconcile that with some of the challenges we face with the wild Atlantic salmon and the study that came out this week of linkages to the high mortality rates in salmon, which have also been disputed in some cases as well?

I think my New Brunswick salmon federation would say I'd be remiss if I didn't bring this up, including that and the downstream smolt passage at the Tobique River. I'm more concerned about the reconciliation of the aquaculture, making sure we can move that file ahead in a way that still maintains a possibility of our sport fishery.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Thank you very much for the good questions.

Let me briefly reply to Mr. Kamp. You asked about the west coast, whether we would look at an independent operator operation on the west coast. Again, the west coast fishery is significantly different from the east coast, but undoubtedly there are great commonalities, and over a few years we will do whatever benefits the fishermen themselves. These initiatives are not ones generated in Ottawa; they're ones that came from the people themselves when we worked with them.

The issues you raised, Mike, are extremely important. Aquaculture has become one of the priorities in our department, and I say that from two sides. Number one is trying to alleviate the concerns or verify them, as it might be, and deal with them. But we see aquaculture, not only in Canada but throughout the world, as becoming extremely important as a creator of major employment and putting a major protein product on the shelves, which we can no longer do with the wild fishery because of how we've handled it over the last few years.

We have taken major initiatives, both in relation to the fish we manage inside the 200-mile limit and in dealing with our international partners outside it, to try to concentrate on conservation, which is the bottom line in every decision we make. By working with them, we are seeing less pressure on the stocks. We are actually seeing growth in a number of our stocks.

The ones that are healthy, we are trying to preserve. The ones that have almost been destroyed, we are trying to rebuild. But in the meantime, we cannot meet the insatiable demand for good, clean fish product. Can we have good, clean, fresh product from aquaculture? Absolutely we can, and we're showing that in a number of areas in our country: New Brunswick leading the way, British Columbia, and now Newfoundland and Labrador coming in.

The recent stories on salmon concentrated probably on two things. One is sea lice. We have had numerous studies done--independent studies, internal studies--and it is difficult to determine whether sea lice is any greater problem around salmon farms than it is anywhere else.

But I think the most concerning thing in one of the studies I read recently is that we are seeing a decline in salmon and trout around areas where there are fish farms. We are seeing a decline in salmon everywhere, to the same degree where there are no fish farms, never were, and never will be. There is something happening in the ocean. It might be migration. We are seeing a lot of our pelagics, in particular, migrating north. The sardines that were abundant off California are now abundant off British Columbia. Our herring that were never seen in Labrador are being seen in Labrador, etc.

But we are not seeing the returns to the rivers. We could predict within a small percentage point how many salmon would come back to any one river, and we would be very close. These last few years we're not even close to that, and there is no explanation except that something is going on from the time the salmon leaves the spawning grounds until it comes back—on the way out, on the way back, or out there.

One of the commonalities throughout the country now—it used to be just off Newfoundland and Labrador—is predation. We always talked about seals. One of my predecessors, John Efford, always talked about seals and the destruction of fish. On my last two trips to British Columbia, the major concern raised by a number of people was predation. That is something we have to look at, and certainly in your own area in the gulf, in particular, it is a major issue. So we have to find out more about what's happening.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

We can take care of that on the way out or on the way back, as we say.

We're going to give three minutes to each party now for a second round. We have about twelve and a half minutes left and we're going to stick to the three minutes as much as possible.

Mr. Matthews.

[Bill Matthews, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to welcome the minister and his officials. In the interests of time, I have a couple of very quick questions.

With small craft harbours, when you were on committee and up to today...we've always been concerned that the approvals don't seem to get done quickly enough and we get delayed in work, projects don't get started, and then there's a carryover, and so on.

I'm just wondering if you've really been doing anything to try to get the approval process done faster, so that the work gets done in the season it's supposed to be done in.

Another issue on which I'd like to ask a very quick question is this. I notice in reviewing transfers of quotas between contracting partners of NAFO that in 2007 Canada transferred 500 metric tonnes of 3M redfish, I think it was, to Japan. I'm wondering if you could inform the committee why that took place or what caused that to happen.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Let me take the first one, Mr. Chair, and I'll ask David to answer the second one.

The small craft harbours approval is probably getting worse in the sense that we have more people getting involved now, whether it be the communities or environmental groups. The departments of the environment, health, environmental groups.... everything you do now, you have all these permits you need to get. That doesn't help.

We are trying to speed it up. Within our department we have tried to find out how many divisions would be affected and we've brought them together. We've also built up a close working relationship with like-minded people in other departments. We're trying to do that across government. Whether it's for the approval of a mining project or the creation of a wharf, we're trying to fast-track it. It makes sense.

On the other issue, David might want to answer.

[David Bevan, Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Aquaculture Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

Obviously, just like Canadian companies, Canada wants to make the best use of the available quotas that are provided under the NAFO process. In some cases, that means that where we have fish that we can't fish effectively or economically we'll trade that fish and get an exchange, for example in this case, redfish for shrimp.

It's just a business process supported by the Canadian delegation and by the businesses involved in fishing our NAFO quotas. A decision was made to maximize the returns by making a trade with Japan of redfish for shrimp.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

You have 30 seconds.

[Bill Matthews, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

For further clarification, are you saying there would be no Canadian interest in harvesting that 3M redfish, but instead they'd catch the shrimp? I guess shrimp would probably have a higher value than redfish. So was there an exchange of a lower amount of shrimp, let's say, for the 500 metric tonnes of redfish? Is that what you're telling me?

[David Bevan]

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

[Bill Matthews, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

There's nobody to catch it? No one would want to catch it? Have there been Canadian efforts?

[David Bevan]

On the Flemish Cap there was no great interest in catching the redfish, given the size, the cost, and so on.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Thank you, Mr. Bevan.

Mr. Lévesque, three minutes.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Good morning, Minister, ladies and gentlemen.

I contacted you last year, I believe, concerning the beluga quotas granted to various villages in Hudson Bay and Ungava Bay, as well as the calculation of those quotas. You informed me at the time that you would be prepared to meet with those people, and I passed the message on to them, and I believe you did meet with them. Ms. Dansereau has previously had occasion to meet with those people, and she is familiar with their demands.

The village of Akulivik, for example, is at the point between Ungava Bay and Hudson Bay, and the belugas pass nearby. The people of that village fish very close to villages further to the south, but the landing quotas for the southern villages are included in those of the village on the point. This has become a problem.

Furthermore, I believe you asked people from Nunavik to monitor the beluga populations. However, when they filed their reports, departmental people were still supposed to come and check to see that they were accurate. However, when the departmental people appeared, the number of belugas had already been exceeded, which had the effect of reducing the quota opportunities for the people on the coasts. I believe you've discussed that. In any case, I hope that a solution has been proposed in that regard.

At the other end of my area, in the northern Gulf of St. Lawrence, cod quantities are a problem. Last year, the cod quota was 2,000 tonnes, I believe. We're familiar with the problems prevailing in that area. Will a minimum be set in 2008, to enable North Shore fishermen and businesses to survive?

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Thank you very much. Merci, Monsieur Lévesque.

In relation to the question on the beluga, I met with a group of Inuit people from the north on this very issue. They raised the exact same questions and made the same points as you have made, and I believe very accurately. They said that when the people doing the surveys would come into the area, the beluga whales would be somewhere else and they would never get an accurate count.

One of the people there was in his seventies. He had been there. He knew what was going on. He knew the history of the movements of the beluga. What we agreed to do, and are doing, is when we're determining the biomass in relation to the allocations being given, we will not go in any more on our own to do the count. We will contact people, like the elders, in the different areas and get them to work with us, to make sure we understand the migration pattern. Whatever answer we reached would be agreed on collectively. That's in the process. Hopefully, it will solve some of the problems.

In relation to--

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

On the other issue, Mr. Minister, you'll have to put it in your end remarks, because you don't have time right now.

Ms. Bell.

[Catherine Bell, NDP, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Thank you. I hope he doesn't take it out of my time.

I want to thank my colleague Mr. Allen for his question on aquaculture. It's another issue for the riding. We absolutely recognize that it provides good paying jobs for our small remote communities up the coast that need them. I'm glad to hear you're working with them.

The other part is the sea lice studies, which have been done over many years, that are giving proof that there is a problem. But as you recognize, there are a lot of other constraints on our salmon, with global warming, climate change. We recognize that something is happening in the ocean. There are industrial, commercial, and residential developments that are causing a loss of small river habitat. There's logging in watersheds that is changing what's happening in creeks. There are a whole lot of pressures on our wild fish.

You said you've added enforcement and habitat restoration people. I would like to know how many and where. Again, the question I get when I'm home is, “Where are these people? We're stressed to the max. We need help. There's not enough money, so anything you can do to help us build that up would be really appreciated.”

The other thing they're saying is that because of these constraints and because they're losing fish.... You mentioned yourself that stocks are down. Do you think it's important that we be do more? I'm wondering whether there will be more in the upcoming budget for this type of work.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Thank you very much. They're great questions.

Number one, I believe we added 12 habitat officers and 22 enforcement officers--and somebody can correct me on this--this past year in the British Columbia area alone, which will be a great help.

But we can add as many enforcement or habitat officers as we like, and it's the same way with money. We always talk about more money. It is not always about more money. Again, going back to Mr. MacAulay's comment earlier, it's what you do with the money you have. We use money as an excuse sometimes for not doing things working together.

Governments, meaning the pockets of the average taxpayer, should not be paying for things that are caused by people who have money. To clean up the environment, to make safe fishing areas, we need more than fisheries officers, or fishermen, or community. We need industry. We need all of the players working together. I think people are waking up; I really do. I'm seeing a major change in attitude. I think it's time to build on it.

We need coordination of leadership.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Excuse me, Mr. Minister. It's what you do with the time you have that's important here this morning.

Mr. Keddy, three minutes.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Minister, for being with us this morning. Mr. Byrne had mentioned that you were a long-time member of this committee, so welcome back here.

I have one comment and two questions, and I'll ask them in that order.

The first comment is to thank you for your position on sealing and the work and cooperation of your department. I think for the first time in a long time we've had a beneficial and proactive relationship with the ministry on sealing and in pushing Canada's interests around the world—but especially in Europe. So we appreciate that. Thank you for that. It's a difficult and sensitive subject, but it's one where we're on the right side.

The second question is about boat length. You've mentioned, and I've heard you say many times, that the length of the vessel really shouldn't matter. Often that vessel length is about safety, but at the same time, sometimes the bureaucracy in DFO tends to allow divisions and jealousies between the fleets to govern boat length.

We have a number of instances in my riding where we've asked people to move to become multi-species licence holders. You have a person with an LFA 34 or LFA 33 lobster licence who would require a boat that is 44 feet, 11 inches, or a 50-foot boat today, and because their groundfish licence was originally on a boat that was 34 feet 11 inches, they can't put their groundfish licence on that 50-footer; therefore, they require two boats, and, effectively, we're preventing them from making a safe living because they can't move to that 50-footer. It's a real problem, and one that's not going away.

The other question is about your fleet separation and owner-operator policy, which has a different effect in southwestern Nova Scotia—where you have an independent fishery—than the rest of the country. And we still haven't dealt with the problem that the big players, who have thousands of tonnes of quota, continue quite often to sell that quota to the small guys, the small boat fishermen, and then we end up with a situation where you have small processors who can't vertically integrate with one or two or three trusts, and who use those trusts to guarantee their supply but are now in a situation where they have to get rid of them. I know that's a difficult issue, and it's one you've been wrestling with.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Very quickly on that, Mr. Chair, first of all—

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Mathematically speaking, Mr. Minister, three minutes is three minutes, and the three-minute question posed means there's zero time for you to answer.

I'm going to give the minister five minutes now to clew up some remarks. On behalf of the department, thank you for your presence here this morning.

I'm sorry for being so regimented, but I have no choice.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

If the committee would like me to come back and we can work something out, I will come back whenever we can find time. I enjoy it here.

Let me answer some of the questions and deal with some of the points that were skipped in my five minutes.

To Mr. Keddy, let me say that the bureaucracy doesn't run the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. I do. If I am the one who gets the limelight and the credit, I am also the one who takes the blame if something is not done. I have a great team that works with me. Collectively, we try to do what has to be done. I challenge anybody to compare what was done in previous years with the initiatives that our group has had the guts to do. We have done things nobody else would do. Does everybody like what we're doing? Maybe not. Have we made headway and have we helped people? Yes, we have.

As to boat length in your area, that's great when we're talking about certain fisheries, where the length of the boat doesn't affect your competitiveness with your fellow man. But in fixed fisheries, lobster being one, there is no quota. Whoever has the biggest boat, the fastest boat, can go out in bad weather and carry more pots. This puts some people at a disadvantage. Therein lies the problem. But I realize what you're saying. Safety is also an issue. These things have to be looked at, but in a way that's fair to everybody.

As to the cod for the north shore of Quebec and the northern areas, it depends. The bottom line for all of us has to be conservation. When I saw first nations people, this past summer, not even accepting their social and ceremonial fish because of conservation, that really made a statement. We've come a long way. We have to be conscious of that. But will we allocate fairly and will we provide what we can? Absolutely.

I am disappointed that we didn't talk more about ice and sealing. We have an expert on ice here this morning, Mr. Dryden, and I wish he had been able to get involved. He probably handled himself better on ice than any of us or the sealers.

We're trying to create an economically viable, sustainable fishery. If we don't conserve what we have, we're not going anywhere. We have to protect what we have. We have to enhance it. And we can. You see the yellowtail coming back. You see American plaice coming back to the point where we almost have to open up a fishery because of the amount of bycatch. You see cod affecting turbot catch. Do we have a future in the fishery? Absolutely.

Do we have a lot of challenges? Absolutely. It's no good complaining and using excuses. We tried to do what we could, to bring as many people to the table as possible. It's amazing, when you put all the people involved around the table, all of them have a part to play.

So, Mr. Chair, we were pleased to be here. I want to say merci, mes amis du Québec. I want to thank all of you for your support.

This is a great department—I wouldn't change it for the world. But there could be an election tomorrow, the next day, next month, next year. We don't know. The scary thing is, one of you might be here next time you're having a meeting. So I wish you all luck.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Minister, thank you for your presence here this morning, with your staff. A couple of times you've referred to me as Mr. Speaker. I know I speak two official languages, but they're not necessarily Canada's official languages.

We reserve the right to call you back some time again. Thank you.

We're going to take a five-minute break now to prepare for our next witnesses.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Welcome back, members.

I'd like to welcome Mr. Allan Gaudry, interim chair of the Manitoba Commercial Inland Fishers Federation.

Welcome, Mr. Gaudry.

The process here, as you've just witnessed, is that we'll give you some time for opening remarks and then we'll open the floor for questions.

Without any further ado, I give you the opportunity to enlighten the committee on what you're involved with and the concerns you have.

[Allan Gaudry, Interim Chair, Manitoba Commercial Inland Fishers Federation]

Good morning, Mr. Chair and committee members.

l'm Allan Gaudry and I'm the interim chairman of the Manitoba Commercial Inland Fishers Federation. I would like to thank you for the opportunity to make this presentation on behalf of the federation.

In April 2005, the Manitoba Commercial Inland Fishers Federation was formed as a result of discussions between the Southern Chiefs' Organization and the fishers of Manitoba. MCIFF is composed of a chairman and 12 directors representing 12 regions in the province of Manitoba. The organization represents approximately 2,275 fishers and helpers in the province.

According to the 2006 census, 75% of fishers in the province of Manitoba are aboriginal. With the assistance of government and political organizations, the board of directors sets attainable goals and objectives that will assist aboriginal communities in the long-term sustainable initiatives for the fishery.

Proposed changes in government programs and services, as they relate to the fisheries, are a concern for all fishers in Manitoba. There is a lack of recognition of the role aboriginal fishers play in the fisheries sector. Fisheries regulations are currently being proposed by the provincial government without the full and equal participation of aboriginal fishers and their unique, traditional knowledge.

The fishermen face many challenges that have an adverse effect on their economy. Committees have been formed and have held open forums to gather information so that the public can voice their issues and concerns. To date there has been very little consultation with the traditional users and the fishers. The fishermen of Manitoba realized they needed a strong voice to have their concerns and issues heard and dealt with federally and provincially.

Issues that have been brought to the MCIFF by our members are touched upon in this presentation and are in no order of priority.

First, the watersheds span a large geographical area, from 500 miles south of Lake Winnipeg to 1,000 miles west to the Rocky Mountains. All of these waterways drain toward Manitoba. In Manitoba the rivers and lakes are filled to capacity when the spring runoff and heavy rainfall occurs, causing damage to our harbours. The cause of this problem is the rural municipalities in these regions, which have been enhancing drainage to such an extent that fields are dry after spring runoff in days when it used to take weeks.

Farmers in the rural municipalities have a tremendous amount of authority to drain their farmlands for production of crops or hay land. This practice needs to be reviewed. The agriculture industry needs to be held accountable for damages. With this type of drainage there is cause for other concerns such as water quality. Without the natural filtration, the chemicals and phosphorous farmers use on the fields end up in the rivers and lakes, having an effect on spawning areas.

As the fish spawn during the time when the drainage is filled, we see after a few days, as the water dries up, the fish are caught upstream. They have no means of returning to the lake and are killed off along with future stocks. There needs to be a gradual drainage instead of a fast-moving drainage. However, farmers get upset if they see water lying in their fields for more than five days.

Harbours in Manitoba have come a long way in the last few years and have improved since commercial fishing harbours have been formed with local control and partnerships with small craft harbours. There is a need for continued support for these structures in addition to maintenance and expansion of new structures in other communities.

There is a need for harbours in rescue situations to launch large boats. The small fishing communities cannot afford to expand their harbours or repair the existing structures, which become derelict and hazardous.

The fishing industry is in a crisis situation with low fish prices, and the fishers are limited to what they can contribute, if anything, during this crisis. Collecting fees from tourists is a challenge.

These issues must be looked at not only for community needs but also for safety concerns. We need to be able to enter safe harbours during windstorms. Places such as Princess Harbour and Lynx Harbour are ideal for pulling into and need to be upgraded. Many harbours have silted up over the years, and dredging programs are needed to improve them. Boats coming in are running aground and reef because of this problem.

Many rivers need dredging at the mouth, again, for access by boats. This is another safety issue.

The mouth of the Red River is a major concern in the spring. Since the province has been working on a floodway expansion, this causes major flooding in the Selkirk area.

Dauphin River Harbour has a similar problem in the fall and early winter, with frazil ice buildup causing damage to their harbours and flooding on Highway 513, the only access to the community and the first nation. The Waterhen River is another river affecting communities during spring breakup and freeze-up, with frazil ice buildup causing damage to their harbours.

The final issue of contention is the government's involvement in water flows to the Portage Diversion and the Fairford Dam. The loss of spawning areas and the loss of fish stocks and fish habitat are due to the untimely opening and closing of these structures. They impede the migration of fish. That's always been an issue. It's been brought forward to the department so many times; I'm touching on it today again.

These concerns, including other issues, are being brought to our attention on a regular basis. That is what the fishermen of Manitoba are faced with.

We thank you for this time.