Fisheries Committee on Nov. 21st, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

I call the meeting to order and welcome our guests.

I will just make a quick comment to the committee members. We have a budget for our study on small craft harbours. The clerk is going to circulate that during the meeting. Hopefully we'll get a chance at the end of the meeting to have a few minutes to chat about that, realizing that we have to go back to the House for a vote.

Also, I have a request here from the Aquaculture Association that I need to talk to you about for a few moments before we leave. So nobody jump up and run away.

I want to welcome our guests, and the extra guests who are in the back here, to our committee. We discovered that you were going to be in Ottawa this week, so we decided to take advantage of having the expertise of you people here, to come and have an opportunity to have a chat with us.

We're in the process of conducting a study into small craft harbours across the country. We have heard from some regional directors. We will be hearing from others. We have had the departmental officials at our meeting discussing those.

We're hoping to present an interim report to the House prior to the Christmas break, because the budget discussions are ongoing and we want the minister to have the information we have put together as a committee, to assist him in hopefully seeking some extra funding to be applied to the small craft harbours budget.

We've had discussions among ourselves about inviting people like yourselves, the volunteers who are on the ground in those communities, and when we found out, as I said, that you were here in Ottawa, we decided to rearrange things.

We want to thank you for accepting our invitation, but also for accommodating us at a very quick turnover of time. We certainly appreciate that.

At most of our meetings we have opening remarks by our witnesses for ten minutes in a prepared statement, or whatever the case may be. Today, because of the short notice we have given you, we would like, if possible, to take the opportunity to start with Mr. Benson, or Mr. Burke as the chair, whatever way you want to do it, to introduce yourselves, your role, what area you represent, and then make a few comments on harbour authorities in general, or whatever you want to do, and then we're going to open the floor for questions so that we can begin the dialogue between the committee members and yourselves.

Is the committee okay with that scenario?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

All right.

Mr. Burke.

[Osborne Burke, Chairperson, Maritimes and Gulf, National Harbour Authority Advisory Committee]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Certainly, on behalf of the National Harbour Authority Advisory Committee, I'm extremely pleased that you've taken the opportunity to invite us here. Our executive was here previously in March of this year, and you should have a copy of that presentation. Generally, that deck had a lot of the information about the harbour authority program with respect to volunteers.

My name is Osborne Burke, and I'm the chair. I am representing the Maritimes and gulf region, and I am located in Cape Breton Island, Nova Scotia, in the Harbour Authority of Antigonish.

What I'm going to do is just make a couple of brief comments, and we'll pass it on to each of the individuals here. We'll also take a moment to introduce our two fellow representatives who are sitting behind us.

In addition to that, I'd like to take a moment to congratulate the chair on his recent appointment, and I believe we have Mr. Byrne and Mr. Lévesque, who are recent additions to the committee.

We're extremely pleased that the committee is undertaking this study. We certainly feel and believe that we're speaking to a group of committed individuals around the table here, from all parties, as we are from the volunteer perspective, in relation to harbours. So, again, thank you for that.

My two fellow representatives at the rear of the room are Bonnie Morse, from the Harbour Authority of Grand Manan, in the Maritimes and gulf region; and Clarence Buote, who is from the western end of Prince Edward Island.

In lieu of time, I will pass it on to Luc.

[Luc LeGresley, Vice-Chair, Quebec, National Harbour Authority Advisory Committee]

Good afternoon, members of the Committee. It is a pleasure for me to once again appear before you. I believe that we have invested much hope in this committee since our first meeting. This is our second such encounter.

My name is Luc Legresley. I come from the Gaspé Peninsula region of Quebec. I am accompanied by Mr. Laurent Normand, who also hails from the Gaspé, and Mr. Marvin Buckle, who is from the Lower North Shore. I will be making comments later on and I will do my best to answer your questions. That is all for me, for the time being. I will now give the floor to Mr. Bob Baziuk.

[Bob Baziuk, Secretary, British Columbia, National Harbour Authority Advisory Committee]

Merci, Luc.

My name is Bob Baziuk. I'm from Steveston Harbour Authority, which is located in the Pacific region at the mouth of the Fraser River. It's the largest harbour in Canada, a commercial fishing harbour. With me today is Elizabeth McLeod from Comox Harbour Authority, and also Ben Mabberley from Whaler Bay on Galiano Island. Once again, it is a pleasure to be here, and we really appreciate the fact that we have a chance to help you in your process.

Here's just a little bit about B.C. We have 52 harbour authorities managing 70-some-odd harbours. I don't have the exact number, but it's in the seventies, so we have multiple management out there. For the most part, the Pacific region is running very well. I'm very proud of it. We also have a separate association that is at arm's length, called the Harbour Authority Association of British Columbia, of which I am a current director and Elizabeth is the current president.

With that, I will pass it over to Bruce.

[Bruce Benson, Member, Central and Arctic, National Harbour Authority Advisory Committee]

My name is Bruce Benson. I'm from a small town called Gimli in Manitoba on Lake Winnipeg. I'm a commercial fisherman. I'm the chairman of the Freshwater Harbour Authority Advisory Council, which is in the central and arctic region. The country is divided into five regions, as you are probably aware. My region is very huge and diverse. It's four provinces and two territories. If it were a country, it would be the fifth largest country in the world, which these guys are probably tired of hearing, but many of you haven't.

My compatriots are David Tomasson, from a small town named Hecla, and Al Matthews, from Wheatley, Ontario, on Lake Erie.

One thing I want to talk about--we are all volunteers--is the passion we have for these harbours, if you'll indulge me just for a minute. I'd like to tell you just a quick little story. I know I'm supposed to be brief. I fished commercially in Iceland, commercially in Australia and on the west coast of Canada, and the closest I ever came to death was on Lake Winnipeg. We were about five miles out and the wind picked up and we barely made it in. It took us about three hours to make it in on a little 20-foot outboard motor, and it wasn't until we pulled into the harbour that I turned to my buddy and said, “We're going to live”. That's what harbours mean to a lot of us: life--the fishermen's lives and the life of the community.

Thanks for inviting us here.

[Morris Fudge, Member, Newfoundland and Labrador, National Harbour Authority Advisory Committee]

My name is Morris Fudge. I'm from Newfoundland.

We have a very large area in Newfoundland for harbours. The most infrastructure in the program is in the Newfoundland region. If you have a wheelbarrow full of money up here, we want to carry that to Newfoundland. That's the first thing.

My colleagues with me are David Duffett, from Catalina, and Larry Butt, who belongs to La Scie.

As you know, Newfoundland is a little different. We have ice on one side of the island and no ice on the other side, so we do have a lot of infrastructure and we do have a lot of damage. The program is really essential to us guys. In our areas now, what we're seeing is that the boats that start now are often getting bigger and everything else, so we need money, piles of money.

Fabian, you got it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Well, Morris, coming from the balmy side of Newfoundland, I know what you mean.

[Osborne Burke]

Mr. Chair, at this point, the one thing I neglected to mention is that in the Maritimes and gulf region we have approximately 242 harbour authorities and 282 harbours. Those are approximate numbers. We have three provinces and the ice as well to deal with.

There are certainly challenges across Canada. Overall in this national committee we're focused on the program, and nationally, the key frustration for the volunteers now is dollars in the aging infrastructure. The fact is that people are down on the wharves trying to get their fellow fishermen to contribute, and we're contributing approximately $25 million on an annual basis, if you count the volunteer input into the program. It's frustrating to be committed, to be dedicated, and then have your infrastructure slowly deteriorating to the point that we need to put dollars into the program. We really need to stress that message amongst all the other challenges we have.

We'll certainly turn it over to you, Mr. Chair, and welcome any questions at all that we can address or attempt to answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Thank you, Mr. Burke.

Just to give you an idea, most of the members here are fully familiar with dealing with harbours in their ridings. In my riding of Avalon, in Newfoundland, I have 68 harbour authorities. It's a very busy file in my office, and it continues to be. That's the reason I guess that we've all come together, to try to see if we can improve on the lot of you people who oversee those projects, and the fishermen who depend on them for a living.

Our process here is that we go around the table, so I'm going to ask Mr. Simms to lead off our questions this afternoon.

Mr. Simms.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Simms.

Given the proximity of both our ridings, we both share in the same frustrations and problems, despite any political colour.

I want to say, first of all, that I'll be splitting my time with Mr. Byrne for the first five minutes.

Mr. Benson, I appreciate your comments about the passion involved and how harbours are a sign of life off in the distance. It's a fantastic illustration of what a lot of people here forget when we deal in dollars and cents, numbers and size, infrastructure, and you name it. So I truly appreciate that small analogy.

On aging infrastructure, we received some sobering news last week about the dollar amounts that are needed to get up to par--and that is just to get up to par.

I want to ask specifically now about the stress that the harbour authorities have, the two angles. First is volunteer fatigue. Can you give us a good illustration of volunteer fatigue, for the people who volunteer in a harbour authority, the pressures that they're under? And can you tell us what is needed from the Government of Canada--not just the dollars but also the type of program you'd like to see in place that will help alleviate volunteer fatigue?

Second, if you look at the progression of our fishery, if you go back 30 years, 20 years, up until now, you'll see that the small boats have now become much larger boats and have become an extra fatigue on the infrastructure itself. When it comes to the announcements and the money we're putting in to upgrade the infrastructure, how has it been so ineffective over the past little while that we're struggling to get only a fraction of what we had before? In other words, I guess what we're looking for here is your perspective on where the money should be going and when it should be coming in, with regard to tenders and that sort of thing.

Can I ask you to address the volunteer fatigue issue first, before you get into possible solutions for infrastructure?

[Osborne Burke]

Probably several of us will reply to your question.

In defining volunteer fatigue—I was here for Monday's session and somebody asked about that—what we're talking about is a kind of unique program. You have a number of volunteers, and these aren't paid people in many cases. They're fellow fishermen dealing with the stresses every day of trying to fish themselves and run the harbour operations--generate revenues, deal with fee collection, deal with waste oil, garbage removal, environmental issues--and trying to put together projects and proposals and access sources of funding. They're doing that as volunteers, and they have to answer to their fellow fishermen in the community. And whether it's a harbour with 10 vessels or a harbour with 500, it's the lifeblood of those communities to have that harbour there.

Just the day-to-day stresses of trying to deal with those issues and answering, in some cases, on infrastructure, which they're putting time and effort into—in a lot of cases, volunteer labour—and not being able to explain to the other fellow fishermen that we're asking them to put more dollars into this, when at the same time, they're asking where in the hell is the federal government, it's a federal asset.... So it's day to day, everyday frustrations.

Added to that, there was a real push to form the harbour authority program. Some fishermen would refer to it as their having come with a gun to our heads and saying “Either form a harbour authority or maybe we'll walk away from the harbour.” So it was very successful in forming the harbour authorities. However, one thing that failed in the rush to form them, while they were still forming harbour authorities, is that there weren't a lot of the support services there in the form of training or assistance. You're running a day-to-day operation, no matter the number of boats, and trying to manage that. There's a real recognition of that now, and we're working towards trying to improve that in training, whether it be board development, day-to-day training, safety issues. And there are a lot more items that have come on the table since we took over as harbour authorities--environmental issues, contaminated sites, pollution, waste removal. There are a number of challenges facing us, but we're not prepared to give up on it, that's for sure.

I'll ask any of my other colleagues here to jump in on the volunteer fatigue issue as well.

[Bob Baziuk]

I would like to echo that. I've been on the front lines on these harbours as well. When you're walking the floats and trying to answer questions about why this isn't fixed and why it is like this.... Those people on the front lines get a lot of abuse. I got it first-hand myself, and sometimes you don't have the answers for them. There's the stress of that to add to the fatigue.

Also in life, and I think in every community, you see the same people who volunteer all the time. It's always those people who step up to the plate. They're starting to age, and it's hard trying to find new directors who will fill in. All of those aspects, the exposure and the safety that these people deal with as volunteers, are huge. It's asking a lot of people, but there's a lot of good people in the program.

[Luc LeGresley]

In Quebec, there are 45 harbour authorities. That represents some 52 sites that are considered to be essential and are recognized by Fisheries and Oceans Canada, and approximately 300 volunteers. If you are somewhat familiar with Quebec and its geography, you are perhaps aware that its fishing harbours are situated in the Magdalen Islands, the Gaspé Peninsula and along the North Shore.

It takes approximately three days to cover the Gaspé region and visit each one of the fishing harbours. The Gaspé Peninsula is immense. As for the North Shore, it is the same thing, except that there is no road leading directly to the Lower North Shore. The fishing harbours are thus in a way the roadway of the people in this region. Without fishing harbours, these people are isolated. The situation is the same in the Magdalen Islands.

In Quebec — and the same also applies to all of the other regions —, the fact that volunteers are charged with the management of fishing harbours, with all of the responsibilities that entails, is a source of much frustration. This situation becomes hard to bear. It is not the government of Canada that risks being sued, it is the volunteers. This problem has often been brought up in Quebec. The situation has become so difficult that a few years ago, all of the fishing harbour administrators in Quebec wanted to withdraw. Why? Because they were protected by no insurance whatsoever. We now have one. Luckily for us, because otherwise, we would not be here talking about this today.

Furthermore, the federal government is more and more providing insufficient funding to the department. We are being asked to continue to do just as much with the same resources. It is an impossibility. The situation is such that many harbour authorities carry out work without going through Public Works Canada. Why? In order to get more done. But is the work carried out in accordance with safety standards? The question must be asked. A lot of people prefer volunteer work because the amounts of money available are limited. For example, if Public Works Canada were to build a road, it would cost approximately $150,000 whereas otherwise, the cost would be of $100,000. However, the fact of having saved $50,000 might be a source of deficiencies. It becomes a waiting game.

Another frustration is due to the fact that, year after year, we are constantly being asked to do more. In the beginning, we were asked to manage fishing harbours. Today, we are being asked to carry out inspections, to deal with waste water, to take care of environmental issues, to not forget to draw up financial statements, etc. Volunteers are being asked to accomplish tasks that should normally be carried out by people paid to do so. How could we explain to a fisherman that we are going to send him an invoice simply in order to offer him a minimum amount of services, a presence, a certain level of safety, by insuring that the boats are properly tied up, for example? In fact, we are asking 5,000 volunteers to do this work.

I find it deplorable that people, no matter what party they belong to, not have the courage to recognize this work. We are being told that it is recognized, but no positive sign or result has been communicated to the complement of volunteers. They are not being encouraged to stay put while waiting to be granted some help, some financial assistance. If this message is not communicated by the Canadian government and all elected representatives, what is going to happen? Ask yourselves the question. But we may no longer be here to provide an answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Thank you, Mr. Legresley.

I will just ensure that you understand the process. What we do is we allow each party representative to have a question and we have a limited amount of time for each so we can get around to everybody.

So we're going to go to Mr. Byrne, and realize that everybody may not get to answer every question. So if you want to split it up among yourselves, you can do that, because I want to ensure that every party gets the opportunity to ask questions. We're trying to do two rounds.

Also, I'm asking the committee that we have a little leniency here today in regard to the answers. We're not going to have leniency in regard to the questions.

Go ahead, Mr. Byrne.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Thank you very much, gentlemen. Thank you for appearing.

We heard testimony on Monday from the assistant deputy minister responsible for the small craft harbours file, joined by the director general of the small craft harbours file. They told us very explicitly, very clearly, that there was a $475 million deficit for immediate maintenance issues just to simply hold the line, to bring harbours basically into a maintenance level that they were originally engineered or designed for.

We heard there's a $50 million deficit potentially within the department for new harbour requirements in the north, in Nunavut. The department said there's an $82 million deficit required for a recreational harbour divestiture, which they don't have. So there's $600 million in funding deficits within this department over the next five years, and we don't build one new harbour out of that whatsoever. We are just simply holding the line, except in the situation in the north.

To meet emerging needs in new fisheries, including aquaculture, aboriginal, and to accommodate vessel size changes, have you as a harbour authority, as a collective--because this is the information we couldn't get out of the officials--developed some sort of calculation of what you need as harbour authorities to build new harbours, to meet new demands such as in aquaculture and changes in vessel size, changes in the fisheries themselves?

[Osborne Burke]

I will kick that off. I think we spend so much time worried about the deteriorating facilities, we haven't had time to worry about new construction. That's been the priority: the day-to-day fishery, the day-to-day activities, the challenges you talk about and the lack of dollars. As we continue on each year, those facilities are becoming more difficult to maintain and more costly again. So I don't think we've had a lot of time to stop and consider new construction.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Given the warning the chair has given us, this is a piece of information that I think the committee really needs to have in the formulation of a report. I think we're facing about a $1 billion infrastructure deficit within the small craft. My feeling is $400 million, but I need to know from the experts, and the committee members need to know from the experts--who are you--what you need for major capital and minor capital for harbour improvements across this country so that when we report to Parliament we actually have a figure to be able to say, this is the money that's needed over the next short period of time to be able to meet your expectations and your needs as a professional industry and as people who are on the ground fighting this good fight.

Would you be able to endeavour to sit as a group to try to figure out, within a reasonable approximation, what your future requirements might be?

[Osborne Burke]

Well, I can speak currently for the Maritimes and gulf region. A lot of the harbour authorities are going through an exercise trying to come up with a five-year plan. The purpose of that is to try to take advantage of the dollars we have in general repairs, to plan better because of the regulatory requirements and environmental assessments, habitat. Those are challenges that are there now. Hopefully, with that planning we're certainly going to identify not only in each harbour authority what currently needs immediate repair but also what are the other items that need to be done from a construction point of view.

We're just getting to those stages of trying to do that planning in the Maritimes and gulf region, and I think that will give us a better handle on where we can go. We can do as much planning as possible in advance.

I don't know if somebody else wants to jump in here.

[Bob Baziuk]

Yes, I think that's what regional directors will do in accordance with the chain of command. They will figure out those numbers from a region-specific...how they gather their information through their area chiefs, or what have you. But I thought it would be more than $475 million. I think we should go next door and vote on it right now and just get it done.

On top of that, that's just for repairs to existing harbours, you're right, but there's also the maintenance. Dredging is a huge thing all across the country. I'm no stranger to it, with the silting in the Fraser River currently, and in Quebec they have problems, in Comox, the whole schmear. So that's another aspect. Those are things you don't even see as far as repairs go, but it's huge.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Mr. Burke, it would be hugely helpful to this committee if, in a short period of time.... Because we do have a reporting requirement of trying to meet a deadline of December 12 to actually put an interim report into the House prior to the next budget cycle, it would be very, very helpful.... The one shortfall we have in the information, Bob, that officials were not prepared to give us, was an estimate. You said they're planning and that's their role, but we need to hear from somebody, experts we can rely on, what would be the actual minor capital and major capital requirements over the next five years to actually meet expectations from your membership, your fishermen, on that major capital file, and to try to figure out....

We know there's a $600 million deficit that's not being met. That's simply on one side of the equation. The other side of the ledger concerns how we can actually build new infrastructure. I think you would agree with me, there is new infrastructure that needs to be built.

We don't have that data, and without that data there will be a hole in our report. If you, Osborne, could work with your colleagues to get us that data, an estimate of what that figure is, that would be very, very helpful to this committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Time for a short answer, Mr. Burke.

[Osborne Burke]

We will definitely do our utmost to do that. We will also work in partnership with small craft harbours staff throughout the regions and at the Ottawa level, because we have a good working relationship there. I think collectively we can come up with that number. If it assists in the process, we're all for it and we'll give it our best effort.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Mr. Blais.