Evidence of meeting #36 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was dredging.
Chair, Ladner Harbour Fishers' Committee
Yes, and if they have a stove or a fridge, or.... Who knows what they have inside their boats? It's the same with the float homes: they're listing too. They're eventually going to break up. They won't take it; the float homes won't. They won't take going dry, because with their structure, they'll eventually break up.
And then, there are people grounding out in their boats. When they're travelling down a river, and they get stuck out there, who knows what can happen?
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
Thank you very much.
There's one thing I'm new to: prop-washing. What's that? I guess we should know. I don't know, so I'm asking.
Member, Area E Gillnetters Association
Yes. When your boat's tied to the dock, if your boat's going dry, you run your propellor, and it kicks out the mud that's building up underneath your boat. Fisheries—the enforcement guys—seem to think that's a bad thing.
Liberal
Member, Area E Gillnetters Association
Well, you can't, and unless you want your boat to go high and dry and tip over and burn up or sink, you have to do something. That's what I was alluding to. This is an unnatural process down on the south Fraser.
Also, Mr. Baziuk was talking about Steveston. Probably before his time, at the top of Steveston Island they built a rock jetty across it. They built that rock jetty because, in their thought, it would slow the water down and make it easier to dock at the docks. And they put the big wing dam up above the rock jetty.
That worked really well for the first 25 or 30 years. Then all of a sudden the water slowed down and the silt built up. If the flow were going through there, maybe it wouldn't be as easy to tie to the dock, but it wouldn't fill in as much either.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
Thank you very much.
Mr. Fraser, you have indicated that you have a long-term lease, is it, or a program for the harbour authority that you have. I'd like you to expand on this. We heard that on the smaller projects, if it's $40,000 or under.... You know what I'm talking about.
What would you like to see in the long term? Would you like to see a long-term process? Would you like to be involved in the long-term process? Should this type of thing change? Should it go from $40,000 to $200,000, so that you wouldn't be putting one project into three different projects in order to get it into the proper funding area?
And on the need for more dollars, which we've heard, of course, overall—and we all know it needs to take place, and it's true that if you did put half a billion dollars into the small craft harbours budget we couldn't spend it anyway—if a reasonable increase every year were put in place.... I'd just like you to give the committee your view on what should take place on the change from $40,000 to $200,000, and what part you'd like to play in the long-term process.
Deputy Director, Engineering, Corporation of Delta
Let me put it into context. I'm not directly involved in the specific projects in the harbour. Generally our expertise is drawn on. So I'm going to defer part of the answer to Nancy.
Deputy Director, Engineering, Corporation of Delta
Let me just talk about, from a general perspective, the $40,000 and the challenges it presents. The $40,000 is pretty small, and definitely we would support that $200,000. More project-specifically, Nancy can supplement this.
Manager, Community Recreation Services, Corporation of Delta
I would just like to say that it cost us more than $40,000 to put in a pump-out station. It took some work, because there are all sorts of things now with environmental review process: having the engineering drawings done and then going out to the local community, as we like to. I'd love to see the increase go up to $200,000. I think that's very reasonable.
Manager, Community Recreation Services, Corporation of Delta
Yes. I think Liz McLeod hit on some things in saying we're all working together in supporting the local authorities. When something happens and they announce they're doing something really big over there, and we get something happening, everybody's happy for each other and moving forward. That's what it's all about. It's about keeping things going, having healthy communities, having people come in to work in the economy for the fishers, but also having the pleasure craft come in from time to time, or the commercial vessels.
We'd love to see a long-term goal or vision for this program in terms of sustainability--whatever you can do in that work. I'd also love to see something to do with removing the abandoned vessels, where we could have the power of arrest.
Liberal
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Fabian Manning
Thank you, Ms. Cuddeford.
I realize Mr. Simms wanted to ask some questions, but you'll have to take that up with Mr. MacAulay, who's supposed to share some time with you.
Mr. Lévesque, you have seven minutes.
Yvon Lévesque Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Good afternoon, Ladies and Gentlemen.
I took note, Mr. Fraser, that you speak rather good French.
I am struck by the inequities I see in everything that is presented. We travelled to the East and the Centre and today we are out West. There are similarities, especially in terms of the access fees to the harbours and docks, the service costs and the power of harbour authorities to force people to pay a fair rate.
Today, we are hearing about a problem which does not exist to the same degree in the East: derelict vessels. I am wondering if it would not be useful for authorities to establish fees by order in council in order to set base rates for tying a boat to a wharf.
As far as silting is concerned, obviously there are some areas on the coast where it is more an issue than in others. In Quebec, for example, the St. Lawrence has had such low levels of water that we had to open dams in order to get the ships out, otherwise they would have been stuck. We do not have in Montreal the tides you have here. I talked this morning with Mr. Fraser about shore erosion, which might contribute to the silting up of the Fraser. I wonder if anything is done to protect the shore against erosion which contributes to silting.
I am struck by another inequity. When we toured the harbour, I asked how the dredging was working. Somebody answered that $200,000 would be spent one year to do part of the work and that some other year there would be more funding to do another part. It seems to me that it is as if we bought ten clunkers for $200,000 because we do not have the means to buy a new car for a million dollars. But a million dollar car, if it is well built, could last for 10, 15 or 20 years.
Has any study been done as to how one could prevent the shores from eroding, with the technologies we have available, in order to reduce silting in a river such as the Fraser?
First of all, I would like you to tell me if setting basic fees by order in council would be helpful for small craft harbours.
Deputy Director, Engineering, Corporation of Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I'll address the issue with respect to erosion. The Fraser River system is a massive river system. It stretches from near Jasper over to Prince George, and then down to Delta. I don't exactly know the length offhand, but it's in the range of maybe 1,000 miles—1,600 kilometres—and probably a bit more. As well, there are many large feeder systems flowing into that river system. There are particular areas, particularly in the Cariboo Plateau, where the silts are just part of the natural system.
Since the river was first discovered, it has been known as the “muddy Fraser”. It's very interesting when you see the river where it meets the Thompson River. You have the beautiful clear water of the Thompson River coming in, and 100 metres downstream from where the Thompson meets the Fraser, you can't even see that there was clear water there. It's just swallowed up.
So we see that there is a lot of sediment that comes down in the system. Stream bank erosion is just part of the natural system, and stream bank erosion protection won't resolve that.
But it is every interesting from a climate change perspective. You've probably all heard of the mountain pine beetle. That has affected a huge area in British Columbia, and it's a growing concern. We discussed that a little bit earlier in terms of how it is going to affect the runoff patterns and potentially the sediment loads. We could possibly be seeing some of those effects already in terms of the increasing rate of silt that's being brought down the river, as well as in terms of the overall hydrology and runoff patterns in the river system.
So I don't think extensive foreshore or management erosion protection work would be feasible or cost-effective.
Maybe I'll just defer the rates question to Nancy, and she can add to that.
Manager, Community Recreation Services, Corporation of Delta
The primary problem here is being able to say that we don't want certain vessels in our harbour any longer and that they shouldn't come in because they're not welcome. Regardless of charging any fees.... As the harbour authority's presentation referred to it, those vessels that are of a confined berthage will be more than happy to be there and let their boats go with the fine. Really, it's more the authority to say no.
We've set basic fees. We have one case in which we're charging an operator $10,000 as a security deposit in order for him to have his vessel stay to the end of this month, because we're concerned about the state of his vessel. But as much as I like to collect revenue, if you have something catastrophic happen, it's not enough and it also affects the other vessel owners. So for that surety, we'd just as soon be able to have the power to say no and have them move out.
Deputy Director, Engineering, Corporation of Delta
As well, I think part of the intent of your question was whether fees should be put toward dredging. In that regard, it's something that would have to be discussed with the commission in terms of applying a portion of boat fees to that.
I know we heard about prop washing, and certainly the boat owners will do that. But in a longer term, it's really of no benefit unless there's a main channel to carry away and bring that sediment downstream.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Fabian Manning
Thank you, Mr. Lévesque.
Mr. Stoffer, you're on for five minutes.
NDP
Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Again, ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for your presentation.
The first question is for the Corporation of Delta.
Nancy, if there's a derelict car sitting on a street in Delta, the community has the authority to take that vehicle away and impound it. They can just take it off the street. Does the same thing not apply for the...? I noticed that the authority falls under the council of Delta, so would they not have the same authority to remove a vessel off the harbour?
Manager, Community Recreation Services, Corporation of Delta
No, because it's a federal jurisdiction if it has anything to do with boating.
NDP
Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS
I'm glad you cleared that up.
On the big picture, I notice that there's a lot of talk in Ottawa regarding the Pacific gateway. An awful lot of funds have come to British Columbia in order to prepare that, obviously for shipping with the Orient. Has any of that money come your way in order to ascertain...? I know there's a lot of work on infrastructure on the Fraser, in that one channel, but has any of that money filtered down your way in regard to assistance in what you're talking about, the secondary channels? Have you had a chance at all to speak with someone like David Emerson, the minister who is responsible for the Pacific gateway, in order to ascertain some of those concerns?
Deputy Director, Engineering, Corporation of Delta
With respect to the Pacific gateway, there are a number of projects, as you point out. There's the port expansion, there's B.C. Rail and rail expansion, and there's the south Fraser perimeter road. Funds are generally directed toward mitigation of direct impacts. There have been no funds, as far as I'm aware, with respect to secondary channels or anything along those lines.
NDP