Evidence of meeting #39 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was scientists.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC
So it is true that the data is collected in August. Is it also true to say that that is not the right time of the year to find cod?
Director General, Ecosystem Science, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
It is hard to say that that is not the right time. The issue must be debated. I am not a cod scientist myself. As I was saying, there is a very specific protocol for the time, the number of tows, the duration of the tows, and the type of equipment.
Bloc
Director General, Ecosystem Science, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Yes, it is done in August and September.
Bloc
Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC
Okay. It is also true to say that fishermen are challenging the time when the data are collected.
Director General, Ecosystem Science, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Yes, that is what Mr. Cotton is saying.
Director General, Ecosystem Science, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Some are not challenging that period.
Director General, Ecosystem Science, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
There are other fishermen, the midshore fishermen for example. So we will see where we are at in September, when the debate on the issue will take place.
Bloc
Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC
Is it also true to say that just three years ago, when we were in Newfoundland, where the same committee was discussing cod, we were talking about coastal cod and deep-sea cod, which presented differences, the view of the scientists at the time was that quota should be decreased and that there should eventually be a moratorium in that area? However, the recommendation of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans was to consider increasing quotas. Quotas were increased in that area, and as far as I know, for the past three years, there has not been a disaster.
Are there any links that can be made to that? I also understand that, first of all, it is not in the interest of fishermen to make things up; secondly, it is not in the interest of the scientists to do that either. But these elements—we are talking about the fishermen's qualitative analysis—cannot be ruled out either, as part of a collaborative and non-confrontational working framework.
Why not say you will study the situation and work more, possibly, on the grey seal, which is a predator? Why not do more work in that area?
Director General, Ecosystem Science, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
At present I believe that there is a strategy, comprised of a scientific component and a management component, that deals with the entire issue of grey seals. Therefore, I do not believe that there has been a refusal to look into the issue of grey seals.
On the other hand, when fishermen provide us with information, we usually sit down and look at how we are going to deal with the issues. You are right: in northern Newfoundland, there were recommendations and once again we worked very closely with fishermen. There were sentinel surveys, and the Stewardship Program. Conditions appear to have changed and we can adopt a positive attitude.
On the other hand, what is worrisome is when people say that current stocks are healthy and at good levels. Scientifically speaking, we would recommend the biomass to weigh in at approximately 85,000 tonnes and not approximately 36,000 tonnes, or 26,000 tonnes, as is currently the case. This is a bit dangerous.
During the first moratorium, we saw that researchers were heavily criticized for their scientific opinions. They are understandably determined to provide accurate opinions.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Bill Matthews
Thank you very much. Your time has expired.
We'll now go to Mr. Stoffer.
NDP
Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, gentlemen, for coming today.
Mr. Cotton was kind enough to send us this information. He put five bullet points of recommendations to make. To me it looks like he and his organization are offering a tremendous olive branch to DFO in a collaborative effort, and it's really nice to know the fishermen are not yet doing what some fishermen do, like lock up the harbours and protest, as just recently when we had a little problem with crab in Nova Scotia.
Here are his points:
Conduct a joint industry-DFO review of the scientific criteria and methods used by DFO to assess Gulf of St. Lawrence cod stocks. Standardize the criteria and methods used to assess cod stocks in the southern and northern Gulf of St. Lawrence divisions. Improve collaboration between scientists and the industry by establishing new memorandums of understanding on marine environment protection and responsible fishing. Draw up a bipartisan program to establish collaboration between DFO scientists and the industry to make sure the recommendations identified above are properly addressed.
And I assume that if those four could be met, then:
Permit a sustainable commercial-type fishery by means of a three-year pilot project, with a 4,000 tonne annual TAC in NAFO Division 4T.
They're offering this as an olive branch to DFO to work cooperatively with you. I would assume that DFO would want to jump at that and say, “Okay, let's work together. Let's have openness and transparency and make whatever scientific finding peer-reviewed, open, and unquestionable at the end of the day.” I would assume that's what DFO would want to do.
If these what I would think of as very cooperative recommendations are being put forward, is this something the minister and DFO would seriously look at to move ahead for the future?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Aquaculture Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I think there are elements there, yes.
The real issue is the 4,000 tonnes over three years. It's not based on any kind of science. And we're making a conclusion about what the outcome of that study will be by having that fishery before we get the answer. So I think that's an element that's a bit of an issue.
NDP
Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS
Right, and I can appreciate that. That was their first recommendation, and that's why I said it last. The next four, I think, are really what they're looking for. Whatever information comes out of that, from a cooperative effort, would obviously be the decision everybody could live with, right?
Director General, Ecosystem Science, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
That's the reason we're having this meeting in the fall. We're actually working together to get prepared for this important meeting.
Director General, Ecosystem Science, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
To give the fishermen a chance to get a very good document on the table.... We have a survey season, so a lot of our scientists are busy during the summer months. People tend to be on the water during the summer, so we're thinking that September would be a better time to do it.
Conservative
Randy Kamp Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, gentlemen, for coming to help us understand this issue a little better.
Fundamentally, I guess, the witnesses before you disagree on the size of the biomass. And the reason is that they don't trust the methods that were used to arrive at the department's estimate of the biomass. In their testimony they talked about things like the methodology that was used, that there's a new boat for the northern gulf test fishery, while in the southern gulf we're still using 1970s technology.
I don't want to spend too much time on this, but I wonder if you could comment on the methodology, what you have done to arrive at your estimate of the biomass.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Aquaculture Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
We've been using three science vessels, the Needler, the Templeman, and the Teleost. And whatever vessel we use, we have to calibrate the fishing tools to actually figure out how they compare. We used to use the Needler in the southern gulf; now we're using the Teleost. And there was a period of calibration.
We're expecting a new vessel in a couple of years. At that point in time, in order to ensure the time series, we will have to calibrate the tools as well. Even if we were to change the fishing gear, we would have to calibrate the old one with the new one, because you want to ensure that you're not managing noise; rather, you're managing a real fishing effort.
Conservative
Randy Kamp Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC
Are you telling us, through all of that, that you're confident in the conclusions you've reached in terms of the 36,000 tonnes of biomass?
Director General, Ecosystem Science, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
The southern gulf scientific surveys we have in the models we apply are known to be the best models in Canada, so it's hard for me to believe we're not providing a good picture. There may be other factors, and that's why we're now using an ecosystem approach that has an influence on the scientific surveys.
That's one of the issues we will be discussing with Mr. Cotton and the other fishermen when we meet in the fall. If there is a need to actually do extra science to realign the scientific programs, then we'll have to do so.