Evidence of meeting #4 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was authority.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Fabian Manning
We shall reconvene and welcome Ms. Geraldine Nickerson.
Did I get it right, Ms. Nickerson?
November 26th, 2007 / 4:40 p.m.
Gerry Nickerson Harbour Manager, Harbour Authority of Woods Harbour
You did. Thank you.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Fabian Manning
She's the harbour manager for Woods Harbour.
Welcome to our committee. Thank you for taking the time to come to present your views to us and answer questions from the committee.
You may give your opening remarks.
4:40 p.m.
Harbour Manager, Harbour Authority of Woods Harbour
Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. Thank you to the committee for the invitation and the chance to be here.
I am Geraldine Nickerson and I'm the manager of the harbour authority of Woods Harbour in southwestern Nova Scotia.
The harbour authority was incorporated in October 1995 but didn't commence business operations until January 1996. Our mandate is to provide safe berthage for all vessels within harbour authority waters and to provide a safe service area to all harbour users in the administration of their business while in our harbour.
We have three wharves, and we're rather unique in that we have one wharf of each classification. Our Falls Point wharf is a class A wharf—of course, our largest one—and this facility provides berthage to 82 commercial and recreational vessels. The Lower Woods Harbour wharf is our class B wharf, and it provides berthage and services to 32 commercial and recreational vessels. The Forbes Point wharf is our class C wharf, and it provides service and berthage to 11 commercial and recreational vessels.
We have a very lucrative fishery in our area. All three of our harbours are very busy. We're year-round, we're ice-free, and we are located strategically to the prominent fisheries: lobster, groundfish, herring, tuna, swordfish, and we also have an aquaculture venture going on.
Now, on the day-to-day management, I assume that.... In fact, I have to tell you I don't know why I'm here. Nobody gave me a “this is what we want to hear”, so I decided for myself.
4:40 p.m.
Some hon. members
Oh, oh!
4:40 p.m.
Harbour Manager, Harbour Authority of Woods Harbour
You know what? I have that luxury.
In terms of my day-to-day management, as I said, I am the manager of the harbour authority. I was elected by the fishermen. We had 182 eligible voters and I got 168 of the votes. We had a 100% turnout, and I'm happy to say that we did it, because I know it doesn't happen often.
I have a 20-hour-a-week contract, or my contract states that I will work 20 hours a week. I usually work between 40 and 60 hours. I maintain an office on the site at our class A wharf. I take directions from a 15-member board...sometimes I take directions from a 15-member board.
Speaking of our board, I heard someone mention boards and burnout. We renew our board. As I said, we have three wharves; we have a 15-member board, and each wharf has equal representation. We make it like a “you have to serve this year” type of thing, so we change folks around, and it seems to work quite well for us.
I manage the facilities at all three of the wharves. I collect the fees. I assign berthages or work with my board on berthing plans, storage, and landings. I develop, or help to develop with our board, policies, regulations, fee schedules, and we look at rules and regulations that would help to ensure the safe usage of our facility.
I inspect our facility and report any required repairs. I try very hard to ensure compliance—and I'll get to more about that later.
I do just about everything. I manage repair and maintenance contracts. We have now started, just in the last couple of years, providing technological access/computer access to our fishermen in our office, so we're working hard on that. We also try to act as liaison between our fishermen and fisheries-related resources and all three levels of government.
That's a basic outline of what I do.
On the financial responsibilities of our harbour authority, I don't know how familiar everyone is with exactly what we pay. The harbour authority is responsible for the financial end of our operation. We have seven electric light bills. We take care of those. A big thing that's happened lately with our financial responsibility and our electric light bills or our electricity is that now Nova Scotia Power doesn't come on our wharves to repair any of their street lights and whatever, so we have to pay that. We pay for jimmy lifts, for our own electrician to come and do the work, and in the last year that particular area has really skyrocketed in the amount we pay.
On oil disposal, with all of my vessels, there are usually two to three times a year that we do a really major...when everybody's changing their oil and everybody's cleaning up. We consider it very important to do this within environmental parameters, so we have oil disposal buildings. Our oily containers and rags, things like that, are in one spot; our used oil is in another. It's very costly to have this properly disposed of, although within the last two years we were able to identify a source to which we could sell our used oil. So instead of our having to pay to have it removed, we are having it removed and generating a small amount of income.
On garbage disposal, you may not think garbage disposal on three wharves of the size we have is much, but it is a lot. In fact, it probably is costing us about $1,300 a month for garbage disposal.
Snow and ice removal is another factor.
Legal fees have come up just recently. We now have a lawyer who is retained by the harbour authority. There have been several incidents in the last two years for which we've had to use her services, and unfortunately, the number of times we need to use our lawyer is increasing.
Then there is a contribution to funded projects. We do that, of course. As you all probably know, we have a 20-80 split with the small crafts and harbours program on most of our small maintenance projects, our minor works projects, and we also cost share with the provincial government.
One thing that is a financial responsibility of ours is payment for projects while we're waiting for funding. That uses up a huge amount of what little money we have.
Next is revenue generation. I had this down, and I was sitting over there listening and I heard it come up over and over again, and I said, wow, it's good that I included it in what I had to say today, because apparently you're all interested in it.
How do we generate revenue? We're very lucky, in a way, at the harbour authority in Woods Harbour because we have a very lucrative fishery, a large number of boats, and the three different wharves. It's not as if we have one little wharf and six vessels. We generate our revenue through user fees, and that includes berthage fees. That's what each vessel pays, of course, to dock at the wharf. We have licence fees, which include unloading licences, truck access licences, lobster cars. That's about it for the licences. Oh, I also have reefer licences this year, and we have subleases.
We have in the past couple of years endeavoured to increase our revenue generation. When I came on board, it was about three years ago. I don't think anyone had really looked at generating revenue before. But I look at the harbour authority as a business and that perhaps we should be running it as a business to the best of our ability. So I started pushing for increasing revenue. In the last years, we've increased the number of private hoists on the wharves by two and we have also started licensing reefers on the facility--we're unable to increase our subleases--and we will be able to do more as time goes on.
The revenue we generate by user fees is adequate to cover our operational expenses and our minor repairs. We are, however, still entirely dependent on the government for major repair and expansion.
I should say, before stopping there—and this is just my opinion and something we talk a lot about on the board—as far as major repairs and expansions and being dependent on the government is concerned, we don't feel that we should be constantly going to the government with our hand out. It isn't the right way to do business. If we're going to be looking at operating as a business, then we should be taking some responsibility for generating our own revenue.
If I come to you with my hand out and it's empty, you're going to look at me and say too bad for you; you want me to fill it. But if I come to you with two hands and I have something in this one, saying, I can contribute this, but what I need is some help from you in this hand, then I think we're able to do business a little better.
That said, when I talked to Stephen, I asked him what I should talk about. He said to talk about what I do, and about some challenges and problems. So here we are at the problems.
Our number one problem at my harbour authority is overcrowding, lack of space, and I want to talk about that at length.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Fabian Manning
Ms. Nickerson, I'd ask you, if I could, to cue up some of your remarks and maybe answer some during questions.
4:55 p.m.
Harbour Manager, Harbour Authority of Woods Harbour
Yes, certainly.
Overcrowding is an issue with us because of the increased size of vessels. The government, to my knowledge, looks at how many vessels we had 10 years ago and how many we have now. They ask why we don't have room. The thing of it is that the vessel size has increased significantly in all harbours, and the wharves weren't built for the size of vessels we have.
The next problem is obstacles to increasing our revenue, and that all comes back to, again, the size of our wharf, the overcrowding, and we're unable to provide additional services that would, in turn, increase our revenue.
The third challenge that we look at is funding, and I'm sure every harbour authority shares that. It's twofold: understanding the process, and the timeframe related to funding and to acquiring it.
Thank you.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Fabian Manning
Thank you, Ms. Nickerson.
Before we go to Mr. Simms, I'd just like to say, with 168 out of 182 votes, you're living the politician's dream. We can only dream about it.
You have 10 minutes, Mr. Simms.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL
I'd like to thank you for coming. I think that was incredible testimony. You may be puzzled as to why you're here, but we are certainly not. I think that was very good, given the size and the activities you monitor. It's well diversified, one that a lot of harbours can only dream of. I'm simply going to ask you to expand on your problems.
Before I do that, I have a quick question. Is there a role for small craft harbours program involvement in the operational expenses you have? Can you quickly answer that and then go ahead and expand on your problems?
4:55 p.m.
Harbour Manager, Harbour Authority of Woods Harbour
The role of the small craft harbours program in the operational expense is up in your face. I couldn't do it if it weren't for the small craft harbours program. I have a good relationship with my business manager. What we do, basically, is identify an operational problem and discuss it. Again, I'd go with something in this hand and say, okay, this is what we are thinking and this is what we can do in order to facilitate, resolve, or address the issue; what can you do for me? Nine times out of ten, I receive assistance and it works well.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL
On the issue of timing of funding announcements on capital projects and maintenance, could you expand on that as well?
4:55 p.m.
Harbour Manager, Harbour Authority of Woods Harbour
I'm sorry, could you clarify that for me?
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL
Basically, if there's an announcement for funding, if you're on a priority list and you get funding to expand your harbour from the small craft harbours program, what are the problems experienced in the timing of the funding announcements and the process?
4:55 p.m.
Harbour Manager, Harbour Authority of Woods Harbour
We have never done a capital project as yet. With non-capital projects that we have done, I didn't really see any problem, to tell you the honest-to-goodness truth. We're very involved with the entire process. We're lucky that we can be that involved, but we push to be that involved. So we're involved and we understand the timeframe. As far as when we'll get the money is concerned, we understand the bid process, and we have input into that. We have input into the design. We have input into just about every area. We're pleased so far with that. The only issue we have is if we had to pay while waiting for funding, we would not be able to do that.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL
You mentioned that earlier.
How much time do I have left?
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL
I would just throw out to you, if you wish to touch on those problems.... No, forget it.
Could you just touch on solutions in the short term and long term?
4:55 p.m.
Harbour Manager, Harbour Authority of Woods Harbour
Solutions to what problem?
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL
The ones you brought up, the three priorities.
4:55 p.m.
Harbour Manager, Harbour Authority of Woods Harbour
All right.
Our solution to our overcrowding is very self-explanatory. We need a larger facility.
Our wharves are all basically crib structures. When they were built they were built to accommodate a vessel that was 36 feet in length and 10 to 12 feet in width. I don't know if any of you can picture this, but we berth our boats abreast of each other, so when the wharf was built, we had two fingers coming out—the main wharf and the fingers. I brought you some pictures, but we'll pass them around later. We would be able to put perhaps four or five vessels on this finger and four or five vessels on another finger, and that still allowed safe navigation in and out of the berth.
The boats did increase to where they could be less than 40 feet. Generally, they were less than 40 feet in length and maybe 17 feet in width. That was considered a good-sized vessel. It stayed that way for a long time, until perhaps four or five years ago. Then all of a sudden we started seeing vessels come in that were 50 feet in length and starting at 24 feet in width. And they are getting wider. I haven't seen it myself, but I hear there's one coming off the slip that's about 25 or 26 feet wide. They're going to be square pretty soon.
If you just think about it and do the math, now we have a 24-foot vessel that we have to berth and put beside another 24-foot vessel, so that is 48 feet. Those two boats are taking up basically three to four berths that would have been used with smaller vessels. So our numbers are coming down, but we're becoming overcrowded because of the size of the boats.
Stop and think, too, of those two fingers. I have two vessels over here that are 24 feet wide, and I need some water in there for them to move around. Then over there I have to put a small boat and a big boat, so maybe I'll go with a 17 foot and a 24 foot. It's not only tying them up; it's navigating in and out. It takes about 60 feet to turn a boat that's 50 feet long and 25 feet wide, and when you're trying to do it in 20 feet, it just doesn't work. It depends a lot on the captain too, and whatever. It all looks easy in perfect conditions, but if you get a little weather going and you try to get those boats in and out, it is just not working.
In 1968 the average vessel cost about $5,500. That was about 36 feet by 12 feet. Now we're looking at upwards of $200,000 per vessel—and that's your livelihood. You're trying to put that into a facility where it's getting banged to pieces every time you do it. You're losing equipment. You're losing the sides of your boat, your ribbing, your windows, everything else. The wharves were not built to accommodate the newer vessels.
That's an issue for us.
How do we solve it? We need more room. When we look at designing or building a new facility, we have to look at the reality of what the men who bring those boats in and out are going to be dealing with. We looked at some plans that came down to Woods Harbour for a proposed expansion to the Falls Point facility. It had a basin of x number of feet. The engineers who designed it, with every good intention, were saying, okay, this is what we should do and this will work. They unrolled it, and I think they thought we were going to say yes, okay. Fortunately, we looked at it and said no, that won't work. We have to be very careful when we build or expand, in whatever we do from now on, that it's going to be built to accommodate the vessels that are in place now.
I'm sorry I got a little bit carried away.
Did I answer your question on that one?
5 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL
I only requested that you give an answer, so you go ahead.
5 p.m.
Harbour Manager, Harbour Authority of Woods Harbour
All right.
On obstacles in generating revenue, again, it's the size of your facility and what you have in place. Now, I have 315 registered fishers. If I had a larger facility or if we were more up to par, we could definitely take more. With the divestiture happening, we need to be planning, as you said, where we are going to put those other vessels. And those newer vessels, additional vessels, are going to generate more revenue.
I have three subleases, and there are processors and whatever. I can't see where we would ever get more subleases, but we have those subleases and our processors have unloading licences. Is everyone familiar with what an unloading licence is? It's a permit for my buyers and my processors to come on the wharf.
As I said, we put two new hoists on this year to accommodate two more unloading licences and two more of our processors. What this does is not only generate revenue for our harbour authority, but it contributes to the economic stability of our community, it supports small business, and it simply is a win-win situation.
We don't have the room to do that anymore. It's not that I look at a chart and say we can't do that. We go down on the wharf and we walk it through. We have to think of how we can turn a truck, where can we safely put a hoist and unload, how can we swing a boom so it's not going to hit the boat, that type of thing. We don't have the capacity or the physical room to do that anymore. So that is an obstacle to increasing our revenue.
We have two—I guess we could call it an aquaculture operation. I have rockweed harvesters on site. Last year I had six, with their outboards. This year I had 11, and next year I'm hoping for upwards of 15 to 20. I need to have the space to accommodate them. What we did last year, which was really super, was to get some floating docks from the province and we used them. The men built them themselves, which was a great help. Then we put them parallel to the wharf. They're for our outboards. The men built a stairway going down to them, and they're lit. It's fantastic. When they're done with the rockweeding, we haul them down to Forbes Point and use them for our small lobster boats. So that's great. I'm hoping to get more of those. We'll increase our revenue.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Fabian Manning
You'll have more time to answer after the next question.
Thank you, Mr. Simms.
I can see you're going to be a wealth of knowledge here, but we have to move along in the interest of time.
Mr. Blais.
