Evidence of meeting #12 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fishers.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Léonard Poirier  Director General, Association des pêcheurs propriétaires des Îles-de-la-Madeleine
Mario Déraspe  President, Association des pêcheurs propriétaires des Îles-de-la-Madeleine
Christopher Clark  Association of Inshore Fishermen of the Magdalen Islands
Jacques Chevarie  Director General, Cap sur Mer
Marc Gallant  Chief Financial Officer, Cap sur Mer
Joël Arseneau  Mayor, Municipalité des Îles-de-la-Madeleine
Gabrielle Landry  Project Manager, Consolidation de l'exploitation des ressources halieutiques aux Îles-de-la-Madeleine, Centre local de développement des Îles-de-la-Madeleine

8:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Good morning, everyone. We're ready to begin. I should officially rap the gavel to open the meeting. I'd like to thank everyone for coming this morning.

Perhaps we might just take a few moments before we begin to have a moment of silence to remember the one-year anniversary of the tragedy that took place on Saturday, March 28.

[A moment of silence observed]

Thank you very much.

We're ready to begin this morning.

Once again, thank you very much for coming to meet with the fisheries committee this morning, and I apologize for being a little late getting started. There were circumstances that couldn't be helped, but we're here and we're very anxious to meet and to hear the issues pertaining to the lobster fishery in Îles-de-la-Madeleine.

Mr. Poirier, I believe you're going to do the speaking this morning on behalf of the association. Before you start your comments, perhaps you could introduce the others with you this morning and their role, and then if you want to proceed right into your presentation, that would be terrific.

Thank you.

8:15 a.m.

Léonard Poirier Director General, Association des pêcheurs propriétaires des Îles-de-la-Madeleine

Thank you very much and welcome to the Magdalen Islands. I especially want to thank you for giving us this opportunity to express the concerns of people in the lobster fishing industry and the community that depends on it.

Today, I am accompanied by the President of the Association des pêcheurs propriétaires des Îles-de-la-Madeleine, Mr. Mario Déraspe, as well as Mr. Christopher Clark. They will have a chance to answer your questions following my presentation.

It is possible that I will ask for your indulgence if my presentation goes over the 10 minutes allotted to me. We had very little time to prepare; we did not know whether you were going to be able to land.

Basically, we are going to be talking about biology, management and landings. Some of you are well acquainted with the lobster fishery. It is important that we all be on the same wavelength before starting the questions. Of course, we will be talking about profitability and vision—the aspects of interest to you—in other words, what we can do to deal with the crisis currently affecting the industry. I have tabled some tables and graphs that deal specifically with the Magdalen Islands. I will not comment on them now, but during the discussion period, we can look at them in more detail.

In the Magdalen Islands, the lobster fishery is competitive. It operates by controlling the fishing effort. In the Magdalen Islands, just like everywhere else, concentrations of lobsters are found on the rocky seabed. In terms of biology, it is significant for us, here in the Magdalen Islands, that female lobsters reach sexual maturity when they are more than 79 mm long. In the Magdalen Islands, females reach maturity when they are 83 mm long.

The federal government has responsibility, as well as the necessary tools, to ensure conservation of the resource, particularly through management plans. However, the Magdalen Islands long benefited from delegation of fisheries administration to the province, but which was repatriated in 1983.

You undoubtedly know that, since the early 1980s, with the exception of the lobster fishery and the snow crab fishery, to a lesser extent, all the other fisheries have pretty well disappeared, whether we are talking about cod, herring, mackerel, redfish or any other species. We obtained five or six permits following the transfer of fisheries administration from the province to the federal government.

I would now like to address the question of stock conservation. At our request, the Fisheries Resource Conservation Council, or FRCC, looked at overfishing of lobster stocks. This may not often have been mentioned. Previously, the FRCC looked only at the cod fishery.

At the time, the FRCC was advocating egg production, lower exploitation rates and improvement of the stock structure. The FRCC's objective was to double egg production.

In the Magdalen Islands, we achieve this by increasing the legal minimum size. Between 1997 and 2003, we increased the legal minimum size from 77 to 83 mm. This allowed us to double egg production and meet the productivity goal set by the FRCC.

In Quebec, about 600 licences are issued. Of that number, 540 are fished, including 325 in the Magdalen Islands. That is an approximate figure. In Prince Edward Island, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia respectively, 1,300, 1,600 and 3,300 licences are issued. That gives you an idea of the number of licences per province.

You have met with officials from Fisheries and Oceans. Licences are granted based on lobster fishing areas, or LFAs. Each area has its own number, but some areas are much smaller than others. In the Magdalen Islands, we are lucky to have an area that fits with the biological pattern of the lobster, which is a relatively sedentary species. We never wanted to divide our area into sub-areas, as has been done in other regions, as it would make management extremely difficult. So, we have always avoided splitting up our area into different smaller areas where every fisher is “master in his own house”. That would cause problems in neighbouring areas. We want to keep our area intact.

Generally speaking, many of the management measures used here resemble those in other provinces, but some of them are peculiar to the Islands. Our season is nine weeks long from opening to closing. Specifically, there are six fishing days per week, from Monday to Saturday. The minimum size of a catch is 83 mm. In the past, the maximum number of traps was 300; it is now 288 and continues to fall.

Of course, we release any egg-bearing females that are caught, and large traps are prohibited, which is peculiar to the Magdalen Islands. It is mandatory for the traps to have an escape hatch for small lobsters and it is prohibited to haul and bait traps more than once a day. There is a minimum number of traps per trawl, as well as a maximum trawl length—which again, is peculiar to the Islands.

The fishing season begins in early May, when the ice has melted, and ends when the lobster moult in early July. The lobster size had already increased from 64 to 76 mm. As I said earlier, it was only from 1997 to 2003 that we increased it from 77 to 83 mm.

We abide by conservation plans, which are now implemented over a five-year period.

In the United States, the size is 3¼ inches, or 82.5 mm. In terms of the general status of the stocks, I mentioned earlier that we had doubled egg production. A ten-year plan has been put in place with a view to decreasing the fishing effort. It involves two phases, and we are currently in the fourth year of Phase 1. The number of traps was reduced from 300 to 288 in 2009, and we will continue to lower that number gradually. We will be removing three traps per year until Year 10.

As regards the catch, we operate the same way as everywhere else. We use traps and passive gear. Here it is an inland fishery only. As I explained, the traps are made out of wood or metal.

In terms of landings, you are surely aware that a little more than 50 per cent of lobster comes from the United States. It is called homarus americanus. Canadian lobster represents a little less than 50 per cent. In Canada, 50 per cent of the lobster comes from the Gulf and the other 50 per cent comes from outside the Gulf. That gives you a good overview. The table shows that Nova Scotia lands more lobster here. For Quebec, it is about 5 per cent of production, 70 per cent of which comes from the Magdalen Islands. So, for Magdalen Islands, we are talking about a production level that is normally about 4 per cent.

In terms of how our landings have evolved, you may want to have a quick look at the table. We reached a peak in the early 1990s. In our view, we reached it too quickly. That was probably due to too rapid an increase in the fishing effort. There has been a decline in 1996, 1997 and 1998. That is when we really decided to bring the situation under control. Thanks to the steps advocated and defended by leaders of the Association, with the support of fishers, of course, and Fisheries and Oceans Canada, we were able to turn things around. Since then, we have seen a constant progression. We went from 4 million to 5.5 million pounds. That is a phenomenal increase. It is almost a 35 per cent increase. The important thing to know here is that, this time around, we moved slowly and gradually. This did not come about as a result of an increase in the fishing effort. On the contrary, we enforced the management plans and we controlled the fishing effort.

8:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Mr. Poirier, we're going to have to wrap up.

Thank you.

8:30 a.m.

Director General, Association des pêcheurs propriétaires des Îles-de-la-Madeleine

Léonard Poirier

The only difference is that we bring our product to market in May, whereas the other provinces start to do that a little earlier. In New Brunswick, it is two weeks earlier. They end their season in late June, whereas in our case, it is more like early July. In the United States, the peak period is from July to October. Those are the seasons.

I will conclude my presentation on that note. I am now ready to take your questions. As I said previously, they may deal specifically with the Magdalen Islands or the lobster industry in general. Thank you very much.

8:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Merci, Monsieur Poirier.

Mr. Byrne.

8:30 a.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our witnesses, especially for the welcome you have provided us. And thanks to Mr. Blais, who, whenever he mentions a possibility of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans travelling to the Magdalen Islands, finds not much difficulty getting his colleagues to willingly and enthusiastically come on board. This is our second trip in about two years, isn't it, Mr. Blais? I'm delighted to be back again and to feel so welcome.

I'm going to share my time with Mr. MacAulay, but I have three questions I want to explore with you.

You mentioned the jurisdictional role between the federal and provincial governments, and you mentioned the pilot project, the jurisdictional devolution that occurred in the early 1980s in terms of fisheries management. Could you provide some clarity for the committee members as to whether you thought that situation was positive or negative?

In my conversations with fishers from the Gaspé area they weren't too enthusiastic about provincial control over fisheries management. It created some problems. Could you relay exactly how it impacted here in the Magdalen Islands?

My second question concerns the management measures put in place for area 22, the Magdalen Islands lobster fishery. Is this a closed fishery, in the sense that whatever you do in terms of conservation you see the benefits of? In other words, do you have any competitors or intrusions, so that sometimes your conservation efforts are not necessarily enjoyed by you? Is this a shared fishery? I guess that would be my question. Are you independent, in the sense that you see the consequences--positive or negative--independently of the measures that you put in place in this particular lobster fishing area?

Finally, one management technique that has not really been raised here yet is licence retirement. Do you see a value for the fleet you have here on the Magdalen Islands? Is there a need for licence retirement?

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Mr. Poirier.

8:35 a.m.

Director General, Association des pêcheurs propriétaires des Îles-de-la-Madeleine

Léonard Poirier

That is a broad question with three important parts to it.

With respect to jurisdiction, fisheries administration was transferred to the Province of Quebec early in the century. It was only in the 1940s that the transfer of fisheries administration from the Magdalen Islands to the Province of Quebec was finalized. Jurisdiction for Quebec as a whole was removed in 1983. As I pointed out, this was due to the fact that the Province of Quebec had no snow crab, unlike all the neighbouring provinces. In terms of proximity, which is the principle the federal government applies to resource sharing, the crab banks are closer to the Magdalen Islands—at least the largest ones that contain the best crab. The Bradelle bank, located very close to the Islands, had no crab. The province therefore decided to issue six crab fishing licences, upon which there was a general outcry, leading ultimately to the unilateral withdrawal of jurisdiction by the federal government, without the support of the Magdalen Islands, even though the member of Parliament at the time tried to secure the support of Islanders. So, that addresses your question regarding the federal role.

As I said, in the lobster fishing industry, we were lucky to have been managed for a long time by the province. Most of the measures were already in place when the federal government took control of the fisheries. I will not talk about the other fisheries; as I said earlier, it is a disaster. You could conduct a study of all the other fisheries, but today we are here to talk specifically about lobster. We were lucky to have a fishers' organization that was already well developed and well organized, and that had been solidly in place for many years. We intervened to support the federal government, at the local Fisheries and Oceans departmental office, which ultimately continued in the same vein. It was from that time on that we were able to develop our own models that are specific to the Magdalen Islands. That addresses your question about jurisdiction.

As regards LFA 22, as I mentioned, it had the good fortune not to be split up into smaller areas, as others were, because of turf wars and the like, or for all kinds of economic reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the biology of lobster. We, however, always refused to do that and were able to work together to develop common measures. When everything is cut up in small pieces, one person may agree to do something, but someone else in the neighbouring area does not agree. And yet, it is the same lobster. There are consequences for everyone. It is very difficult to operate under such a system. Here, however, we are lucky to have a single, undivided area.

I am not here to throw stones at the federal government—far from it. We have learned to work with it in the lobster industry, particularly at the local level. On the other hand, you are opening the door. Of course, most of our efforts are productive, because we have a good area. We are producing more larvae because of the increase in the legal minimum size, which is something that was not done in the other regions, especially the adjacent regions. We are pretty certain that our larvae are drifting to the north shore of Prince Edward Island. That is why we were very unhappy to see part of LFA 22 split off not long ago, without our receiving any kind of compensation. We know that lobster is a sedentary species, and that is very fortunate. Had it been a migratory species, I am not so sure that we would be as proud of our stocks as we certainly can be today.

Because it is a sedentary species, we were somewhat isolated; we were able to work on our own and achieve our own results. On the other hand, when, fairly recently and unilaterally, part of our fishing area was split off, we found that rather difficult to swallow, particularly since this kind of effort is not being made in some other areas.

In terms of licence buyback, known as rationalization, you have certainly heard of the Atlantic Alliance for Fisheries Renewal. As an organization of fishers from the Magdalen Islands, we are members of the Alliance des pêcheurs professionnels du Québec. Along with the Newfoundland Fishermen, Food and Allied Workers Union and the Maritime fishers, the union is a member of this alliance, which is calling for the implementation of a federal action plan. This organization's request relates primarily to rationalization—in other words, licence buyback.

Today, we are saying that, if a comprehensive assistance program is implemented by the federal government, we should not be limiting it to rationalization. Restructuring must involve more than just rationalization. It must also include equalization. That is what we are interested in, here in the Magdalen Islands. We have made rationalization efforts in the past, and they did not cost the federal government a cent. We are now making efforts to conserve the resource, in terms of the fishing effort. We are in the process of rationalizing our fishing effort through all kinds of means, including by decreasing the number of traps. There again, this is not costing the federal government one cent. As far as we are concerned, restructuring should include stabilization.

Thank you.

8:40 a.m.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

Thank you very much. We're pleased to be here.

There's no question that when you have a fisheries tour, Raynald is going to make sure you're in the Magdalen Islands, I can tell you that. It's great to be here.

We're both from varied provinces. I'm from Prince Edward Island. The lobster fishery in particular is a major issue for sure.

On these measures that you can only haul at certain times of the day, you were only allowed to haul once; you're only allowed to bait once. Was that done by you, by your own organization?

8:40 a.m.

Director General, Association des pêcheurs propriétaires des Îles-de-la-Madeleine

Léonard Poirier

In the Magdalen Islands, most of the measures taken were suggestions made by fishers. As I pointed out earlier, it is important for association leaders to be convinced and for them to convince their colleagues. There is a special situation in the lobster industry. You already know this, because there are lobster fishers in all of your communities. The fishers really have to feel a sense of ownership and be convinced that the measures are necessary. And, the people in the best position to convince them of that are fishers themselves, like the people sitting next to me. These people are believers. That is the way we operate.

8:40 a.m.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

I guess I'm done. Thank you.

8:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Mr. Blais.

8:40 a.m.

Bloc

Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Thank you very much.

Good morning to all of you. I would like you to talk about the tables you provided earlier which deal with the current situation. As I see it, they speak for themselves. I clearly remember that, last year, you drew the attention of politicians, departmental officials and people in the Magdalen Islands, in particular, to increased expenses. We are talking about an increase in terms of what is collected, but also a number of factors that affect the current situation, whether it is the Canadian dollar, the American market or the current recession, which is causing major problems in the United States. Also, we see that there is a very significant increase in expenses. As a result, profit margins are shrinking. Things are so bad that one wonders about the sustainability, not of the resource, but of the fleet in general. I would be interested in hearing your comments on increased expenses and on what the federal government could do in that respect.

8:45 a.m.

Director General, Association des pêcheurs propriétaires des Îles-de-la-Madeleine

Léonard Poirier

You are absolutely right, Mr. Blais. The graph speaks for itself. There is an almost linear progression in terms of the increase in lobster fishing enterprises. The graph illustrating gross and net revenues leads to an inescapable conclusion. Starting in the year 2000, one has the sense that any increase in gross revenues went into covering expenses. In terms of expenses, I will let Mario and Christopher say a few words about the ones that particularly affect them.

8:45 a.m.

Mario Déraspe President, Association des pêcheurs propriétaires des Îles-de-la-Madeleine

Good morning, gentlemen. I am very pleased to be here today.

In his presentation and in answer to questions, Mr. Poirier said that fishers in the Magdalen Islands have no reason to be ashamed coming before you today, given their record with respect to the resource. With the FRCC, we have been to all the regions. We are a role model and that is very much to our credit.

As you said, Mr. Blais, over the years, profitability was good, but in 2008, the markets collapsed. A fisher's revenue is calculated on the basis of the resource and market prices. We can control the resource through certain measures, but we cannot control the market. Prices have declined. Last year, we lost more than $1 per pound. Since profit margins were low, that really hurt. As well, expenses are on the rise. If the price goes down and expenses go up, we will be in trouble. That is what happened in 2008.

What will happen in 2009? We do not know. We are just about to put our traps in the water. As a former president once said, we don't know whether it is bankruptcy that we are heading for when we go to sea. We do not know what prices will be like and we do not know what will happen in one month's time.

What can the federal government do? Well, it definitely has a major responsibility with respect to costs. For example, over the years, the cost of a licence went from $35 to $750, just for the lobster fishery. The cost of some other licences is also exorbitant.

In our opinion, in order to help resolve the problems we experienced last year, the licence cost could be lowered. A moratorium could be declared, which would help the fishers. We have never asked for direct subsidies from either the provincial or federal government. This year, we are asking them to help us out, either in the form of temporary relief or a moratorium, so that the market recover.

A global crisis is underway, and the fishing industry is not the only one to be in trouble. We see that on television. Consider the case of the auto industry, which is asking for billions of dollars. That is not what we are asking for. We want some assistance to help us through the crisis. The resource is there, and when the market recovers, we will be able to carry on as we did previously, without bothering anyone.

Let us move on now to the cost of licences and vessel insurance. Previously, the federal government had a free program. Could there be some relief provided there? The cost of bait is very high. We have to pay for bait, staff and fuel. Those are significant expenses. It is in that area that we are asking for some help. The federal and provincial governments must do their share. For their part, fishers have to adjust their expenses, but they can only do so much of that, given that they have to continue to operate.

Thank you.

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you.

Mr. Stoffer.

8:50 a.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Merci beaucoup.

It's good to be in Mr. Blais' riding once again.

Sir, you had indicated that you've doubled the egg production of your lobsters, and you should be congratulated for that. Was that done as a result of v-notching the female lobsters, or are there other methods that you followed in order to double it up?

8:50 a.m.

Director General, Association des pêcheurs propriétaires des Îles-de-la-Madeleine

Léonard Poirier

In terms of egg production, it is only the increase in the legal minimum size.

8:50 a.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

Do you v-notch at all on the island?

8:50 a.m.

Director General, Association des pêcheurs propriétaires des Îles-de-la-Madeleine

Léonard Poirier

No, it can be an appropriate measure but, in terms of numbers and efficiency, it really is of fairly limited significance. I am not saying it is negative, but it is not a highly effective measure, compared to increasing the legal minimum size.

8:50 a.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

Okay. How many lobster buyers are there on Îles-de-la-Madeleine? How many different buyers are there?

8:50 a.m.

Director General, Association des pêcheurs propriétaires des Îles-de-la-Madeleine

Léonard Poirier

There were 12 buyers in the early 1990s. Starting in year 2000, there were only nine left. At the present time, we are talking about six to ten potential buyers.

8:50 a.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

Are most of your lobsters headed for the United States?

8:50 a.m.

Director General, Association des pêcheurs propriétaires des Îles-de-la-Madeleine

Léonard Poirier

No, part of the production goes to the United States and part stays on the Quebec market, primarily in Montreal.

8:50 a.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

Sir, as you know, there is a problem with the explosion in the rise of green crabs off the east coast. Are green crabs having an effect here in the Îles-de-la-Madeleine area?