Fisheries Committee on March 30th, 2009

[Léonard Poirier]

Right now, that is not a problem here in the Magdalen Islands. There are some, but it is not an epidemic. We have taken a great many steps to raise awareness among people coming in, including tourists or others who arrive by boat—in sailboats, for example. We are very proactive. For example, we wash fishing boats that travel into other areas. We have educated fishers about the need to wash their boats. So, thus far, it has not been a problem.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Sir, this is my last question, and I thank you for the answers to the previous ones.

We've heard a concern about enforcement on the water, either in cooperation with DFO and the people there or some organizations prefer to self-regulate in terms of catching the cheaters out there. How is your cooperation with DFO when it comes to enforcement? Do you rely more on your own association to enforce the rules out on the water?

[Léonard Poirier]

In that respect, this is indeed a role the federal government plays in Quebec. And, it is something we follow closely. I was saying earlier that there had been failures in the management system, but in Quebec, the federal surveillance system is effective for Quebeckers. I don't know whether it is as effective in the other provinces, but here, it is. Also, there is cooperation with fishers. This may also exist in the other provinces, but here there is a confidential phone line that people can call to blow the whistle on poachers. Because this is a small community, it is important to have that confidential phone line. We have also been educating fishers so that they will use that phone line to blow the whistle on colleagues. As well, the federal government has been engaged in an awareness campaign in the primary schools. We are making our children aware, from a very young age, of the need to avoid poaching, to behave responsibly, and so on. As far as that goes, I have to commend the federal government.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you, Mr. Stoffer.

Mr. Kamp.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's always a pleasure to be on Îles-de-la-Madeleine. It's great to be back here. I understand that in addition to being good at lobster fishing, you are good at badminton. I heard one of your teams did well over the weekend in Gaspé.

I want to follow up a little bit more. You mentioned in your comments that you had doubled your egg production, which was one of the goals that the FRCC had recommended in their 1995 report. You said you did that by increasing the minimum size. In addition to doubling the egg production, do you think you have met the FRCC recommendation that 50% of the female lobsters be allowed to mature before becoming available to the fishery? I think there are maybe two different measurements there, but do you think that is the case here in LFA 22?

[Léonard Poirier]

According to Fisheries and Oceans' scientific assessment models, we doubled egg production by increasing the legal minimum size, which is normal. I explained at the outset that females reach sexual maturity when their shell reaches a certain length. Our lobster did reach that length, but lobster in many regions around the Magdalen Islands did not. That is the first thing that has to be done if we want to conserve the resource.

That is unacceptable. We can introduce all kinds of measures—for example, v-notching, which I referred to earlier and which does have some effect—but the fact is that these measures have too little impact, compared to legal minimum size. The federal government and fishers in the other provinces must take their responsibilities: lobsters have to be allowed to get bigger—in other words, reach the size associated with sexual maturity.

The FRCC then comes along and talks to fishers in the Islands about the fishing effort, which applies to an even greater extent everywhere else, where it is even worse. Once you have dealt with egg production, you start to work on the fishing effort. Fishing effort is a danger, but in the other provinces, it has emerged as an issue because of financial problems and the current crisis. That is what rationalization is all about.

We have rationalized our activities, not because of crises, but because of the need to protect the resource. It is time to refocus the debate on protecting lobster resources, in terms of both their size and the fishing effort, which will free up markets and address financial problems.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

With respect to the minimum size, does it affect you here in LFA 22 when an adjoining LFA, off P.E.I., let's say, has a smaller minimum size?

[Léonard Poirier]

Of course, the impact is felt primarily on markets; however, in our case, it is the reverse. Our lobsters are more productive because their larvae drift to and enrich the northern part of Prince Edward Island, which leads people to believe that the resource is in better shape than they thought. However, that must not prevent them from talking their own responsibilities. Measures have to be based on the biological pattern in their own fishing area.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Thank you.

On a different topic, I'm curious about the fact that there isn't a very good measure of stock size or biomass estimates, and I think everyone agrees. It would seem difficult to manage the fishery when you don't know how many fish are out there or, in this case, how many lobsters are out there. We only make estimates based on landings, largely, and the calculations from the cost of unit, effort, and so on.

Do you agree with the FRCC's conclusion that the current system of input controls is not capable of controlling the increase in exploitation rate? Obviously, those two things are connected. You said earlier in your comments that you do well at input controls, but is that enough? Do we need to do more, both in measuring the stock and in considering other ways to control the exploitation rate?

[Léonard Poirier]

I don't know whether this is the case in the other provinces, but here, there are very good assessments in terms of landings. Thanks to diving surveys and trawling, scientists have a good idea of what is on the seabed. We know what is going on. That may be open to debate, but I do believe that scientists have a good idea of the amount of lobster or lobster biomass that is there.

The wide variety of tools we have enables us to exercise complete control. In an equation, certain variables will have much more weight than others, in percentage terms. The final variables then become negligible. Even if you add more, they are negligible. The idea is to find the right ones—the ones that will carry weight within the system.

Indirectly, if you are thinking of something like the enterprise allocation system for a fishery like the lobster fishery, the answer is no. And the reason it is no is that the enterprise allocation system is used where there are huge or significant volumes per enterprise unit. That does not apply when the resource is spread over a large number of enterprises, in which case we are better off using the current system. You cannot maximize returns with an enterprise allocation system that is spread over a large number of enterprises. Just consider the fact that, to this day, that system only operates for midshore fishers in Nova Scotia. This is not a system that should be considered at this time for the lobster fishery. There is no absolute proof that this system would be a great deal better in terms of controlling the fishing effort.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Finally, I have a very quick question.

Have you done anything with MSC certification in this region yet? Do you think if that were to happen it would affect or maybe improve the price of lobster?

[Léonard Poirier]

I believe we should be wary of solutions that people claim will save the industry. There are passing fads and we should be wary of them. At a given point in time, everyone starts using certain terms. When they go out of fashion, people invent new ones. This time, there is talk of an organization. Our position is that a great deal of lobbying is underway around this brand. In some fisheries—for example, the shrimp fishery—they have no choice. Shrimp is very often sold in Europe; that is already a reality in Europe—the lobbyists have done their job over there. It is a little like the lobby to ban the seal hunt: it is difficult to turn things around. I can understand that. If you want to sell your shrimp, you have to be in there.

In the lobster industry, right now it is just a matter of seeing who will be the first one to try and take advantage of this supposed saviour. The first guy to do it may benefit, but when everyone else jumps on the bandwagon, the benefit will be gone. The only result will be additional expenses for fishing enterprises.

We have major concerns. At this time, all the assessments needed to meet MSC standards are carried out by Fisheries and Oceans Canada. I am not talking about the $200,000 you have to pay just to be involved in the process. I am talking about everything that is required to meet the standards on an ongoing basis, in the third, fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh year. Right now, all of that is defrayed by Fisheries and Oceans. But, what will happen if there is an increasing movement towards government or other kinds of rationalization? We have talked about how many programs were paid for by the federal government. And there is also the matter of insurance. They have kept bait services in Newfoundland under the Constitution, but elsewhere it has been lost. Will we also lose these assessments one day, assessments that we will then have to pay for ourselves?

There is a need to exercise caution in relation to these fads. We were the first ones to introduce conservation measures, but in terms of the lobby, we are no longer involved.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Mr. MacAulay.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much. I apologize, I just stepped back into the room. We were discussing the total allowable catch per boat for the lobster fishery. Would this be something that you would be considering here as promoting? Would the fishermen support that?

[Christopher Clark, Association of Inshore Fishermen of the Magdalen Islands]

I don't believe they would in my area.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Mr. Clark, if you're going to say a few words, I'd like you to elaborate on the costs you have inherited over the last number of years, how you feel that is affecting the fishery, and what measures you feel should be taken to make it.... Could you respond, looking at what's taking place in the price of fish that you sell and the costs that have been put on you over the last number of years?

[Christopher Clark]

First of all, I'm here representing the Association of Inshore Fishermen. We have 80-odd members and 320 licences here on the islands. In our community we also have a fishermen's cooperative that has been important in maintaining a competitive price here on the islands. We have 76 members of the cooperative. Again this spring, there's a new initiative by AQIP, for example, to try to control the price of lobsters here. They want to establish a maximum price again, and we're not in favour of that obviously. Whatever return we have goes back to members of the cooperative in our buying.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Excuse me, but you've also had a decrease in your return over the last number of years. You are telling me they want to create a maximum price. Have they indicated publicly that they want to do this? I have lived amongst fishermen all my life and I know there is a fair suspicion that the price has been somewhat played with, for lack of a better term. Are you telling me that they're openly saying it here that they want to have a maximum price?

[Christopher Clark]

This is a negotiation between the buyers' association and the government, of course. It's not an openly public discussion right now.

In terms of the profitability of the fishery you were asking about, over the last two years we've seen an approximately $2-a-pound decrease each year in the price of lobsters. With the recession it became evident last fall that it's possible we could see another decrease this year. At the same time we've seen increasing costs of operating our boats.

Leonard mentioned the increase in the landings here on the islands. The landings were at a high in the early 1990s, and when the fishermen got bigger boats, new gear, a lot of fishermen used double-end traps at that time. That was why there was a ban afterwards on the double-end traps as part of the conservation measures. We were able to rebound somewhat with the landings, but the profitability has been decreasing over probably the last five years of the lobster fishery. It's something that concerns us a lot.

It was mentioned that we have a high cost for licensing, $750 a year here; I've heard that it's the second highest in Canada. So we find that onerous.

The price of fuel was mentioned before. There are still a lot of taxes built into that cost, and we feel that if the taxes were eliminated from that cost it might be something that would help the fishermen.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

The chair is very tolerant; he'll give all of us a month of time.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Mr. MacAulay, you had one brief point.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

All of us are here because there was some talk of the stock that's in place. Then we will hear, possibly after a week or so, that there's not so much stock in the freezers. It's supply and demand that we're dealing with here. If somebody wants it, then they're going to pay for it. What we want to be sure of, and what I think is important, is that there are no reasons being used to have a lower price. We want to make sure you receive the top dollar. Everybody on this committee wants to make sure that happens, and it's one of the things we want to find out as best we can, and to make sure the truth is known that you are providing the supply to meet the demand and that if the lobsters are needed....

Mr. Poirier, you wanted to add something. I'm sure the chair will let you do it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Mr. Poirier.