Evidence of meeting #18 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lobster.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jim Wood  Alma Fishermen's Association
Joanne Butland  Alma Fishermen's Association
Christian Brun  Executive Secretary, Maritime Fishermen's Union

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

I call the meeting to order.

This afternoon we have with us representatives of the Alma Fishermen's Association, Jim Wood and Joanne Butland.

Thank you for coming this afternoon.

As a little bit of a warning to you, we operate under some time constraints. You've probably heard this before, since you were here most of the morning.

You'll hear some beeping noises; that's the alarm on the timer. We generally allow ten minutes for presentations, and then the members themselves have some time constraints to adhere to as they try to ask as many questions as possible and get as many responses as possible to their questions. Anyway, don't be alarmed if you hear the alarm go off.

Mr. Wood, I believe you're going to go first. Any time you're ready, please proceed, Mr. Wood.

1:05 p.m.

Jim Wood Alma Fishermen's Association

Thank you very much, Mr. Weston and members of the committee.

I'm very pleased to be here to address the committee and hopefully add a bit of an insight into things to do with lobster. I am a licensed lobster fisherman here in Alma. My boat is over at the wharf most of the summer and all fall. I've been fishing here for about 20 years. Before that, I had a serendipitous route to get here as a lobster fisherman. I'm originally from central Canada, from Ontario. I received my education up there, both at high school and university, and found myself down in Atlantic Canada and wound up in the lobster fishery as a lobster fisherman. It's been a wonderful life, with great times, a lot of friends, a lot of adventure. Being on this bay here—which I'm sorry that you cannot be, at this time, probably—has been just a tremendous opportunity.

I've been involved in the wholesale business, the retail end, marketing. I've been to Europe on different things with lobster. I've been at the U.S. Boston show. I've been responsible at different times for getting rid of a million-dollar inventory for one of the companies I work for. But nothing beats the experience of being on the lobster boat. I hope some of you can come back in the summer to take advantage of our beautiful scenery and the enthusiasm of our people concerning lobster.

There's been quite a learning curve; the fish politics are intense. The Alma Fishermen's Association has been very supportive. It's an interesting group, a small group, and one that belies the thing that says that individuals have no part in the fishery. The individuals really make the fishery. It's based on individual enterprise, and it's very important that all these voices be heard, even though it may be very difficult. We appreciate the opportunity to speak.

The conditions for the production of lobster over the last number of years have been very ripe. The cod fishery collapsed, unfortunately, but it eliminated one of the major and top predators for small lobster. The sea urchin fishery in different places has been a big help, because it has produced more kelp—the sea urchins feed on kelp—and there have been a lot more places for hiding for lobsters. The water's warmer. Even a fraction of a degree makes a big difference in the production of lobster. There have been conservation size increases and other measures. I have gauges here for any of you who aren't familiar with this to see how some of the very small increases have made big differences in the overall production of lobster, the pounds per animal.

We have a local condition here occasioned by the Riverview Causeway, which was established in the mid-1960s. It stabilized the river from Moncton down to this area. It increased the availability of good bottom area for breeding lobsters. There's been a lot of concern over the last number of years that they're going to rip up the causeway. That's going to kill our fishery; it's going to put silt down here and cause a lot of problems with our fishery. It's been a million-dollar project, for fish passage, and we've always been totally against it.

During the last number of years here, we figure that somebody has been putting on pressure to decrease the wholesale price, beginning in 2007. We saw a decrease of about $1.15 over the previous eight years. During that eight-year period from 1999 to 2006, the demand for lobster had increased. There was a good market for lobster, and markets increased all over the place. There was no trouble getting rid of lobsters at a reasonable and good market price.

During that time, our average wholesale price was in the range of $6.10 to $6.20 a pound. In 2007 it dropped by $1.15, and in 2008, it dropped by $2.20. That left the fishermen on average in the fall with a return of approximately $3.80 or $3.90 a pound. We suggest that for somebody, this represented a $250 million windfall profit on their enterprise.

The buyers, the processors, all that—we had no control over whatsoever. That's a quarter of a billion dollars that have disappeared from this industry.

With this, there have been consistent retail prices in Toronto, central Canada, Vancouver, remaining constant at around $13, $14. Lobster, to the contrary, has not been overpriced. There has been no particular drop in demand other than the short-term promotional strategies that various retailers have had.

For us, lobster is still a very competitive product. The culture of eating lobster hasn't changed dramatically in the last year and a half. The economy is off somewhat, but as far as we can tell, lobster continues to be a very desired and very welcome product.

So when we look at the average fall shore price, it was at $6.10 over the eight years between 1999 and 2006, and in 2008 we're down to $3.90. What we're saying here is that that is not sustainable for more than a very short period of time for many of us.

We have an indicator here that a bag of salt around 1995 cost approximately $5. Today that same bag of salt costs $10. Believe me, you use a lot of salt in the fishing industry. Fuel has increased from 24¢ a litre in 1999 to 62¢ a litre in 2006 to $1.18 a litre through most of 2008.

The industry standard for markup is usually about $1 every time lobster is handled. I sell it to the buyer, the buyer sells it to somebody else. There's a dollar added, there's a dollar added, and there are maybe two or three people in the middle.

Historically buyers have been in somewhat of a competition to try to buy the product, but latterly we've found that buyers have been cooperating to set the shore price. When I first started in the lobster business and was party to a little different aspect of this—not the fishing but the retail-wholesale buying—there was definitely a lot of collusion at the beginning to establish a shore price before the season opened.

What we're suggesting here is that the competition among buyers has decreased dramatically. There's been a consolidation of the industry across the board. With virtually every other type of commodity...lobster fishing, lobster product, doesn't exist in a vacuum; it exists in the general overall economic climate. Today there is virtually no competition in the buying and marketing of lobster.

We don't see a lot of change happening soon in this part of the industry, whether there's a depression or not, because even two years before the depression or recession came—however we want to phrase it—we have seen a general pushing down of that wholesale price to the fishermen. This has been across the board. This has little and minor fluctuations; usually it's a little higher in the spring and then it fades off very quickly.

What we're saying is no matter whether a person happens to be overcapitalized or has the appropriate amount of money involved in the business, this is not going to be sustainable. For myself, I'm a little bit from the old school. I have an older boat, it's paid for, the truck's paid for, all this other stuff, and I'm at a point in life where money is interesting, but it's not the main motivator in life. Even last fall—I'm not going to be able to sustain that again.

This summer, this fall, there are a lot of us looking at a situation where we're not going to be able to pay for the boats, we're not going to be able to pay for our help, and we're not going to be able to pay for bait. What are we going to have to do? We're going to have to hold on for a little bit of time to see what goes on. There are people seriously considering not fishing this year, not because there's no lobster—we've worked pretty hard to establish conservation methods here in New Brunswick, in the Bay of Fundy—and not because there's no market, as there seems to still be a big demand for lobster, but because the price is not there.

I can hear a bell ringing, and I suppose that's the end of the discussion. Thank you very much.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you, Mr. Wood.

We'll go to Ms. Butland.

1:10 p.m.

Joanne Butland Alma Fishermen's Association

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and honourable members. I'd like to thank you for this opportunity to express my views, and I look forward to your questions.

I've been involved in this industry since 1984, mostly as a harvester. I've had a couple of stints as a buyer, here in Alma and also on the west coast of Newfoundland for five years. Jim and I actually competed for a few years. I ran Butland's and he ran Collins.

Presently, I'm a fish harvester here in Alma. Over the last year or so, I've been actively involved with the Petitcodiac River Causeway project, and I have also been attending fisheries meetings, both federal and provincial, on behalf of our association. Today I'm not speaking on behalf of the association, because we didn't have timelines to have a meeting. So this is off the cuff; this is me.

If I understood correctly, you were looking for input on the current economic status of the industry as well as for solutions for achieving long-term sustainability. I was told that I had five minutes to speak, so I prepared a little brief, because I'm a woman, and I can't get my point across in five minutes. Hopefully you all have it and have read it.

I think we have to be realistic about what's achievable in the short term and about what will get us through this 2009 season.

I identified in my brief three priorities for 2009. First, somebody seriously has to look at the price structure. I don't know if it would be government or an independent panel or something. There's definitely a problem. I read the notes from the March 24 meeting. I saw what the assistant deputy minister said, which was that $3.80 a pound was break-even. Anybody who wants to come and see my books can come and see them: $3.80 a pound is not break-even in the Fundy fishery. I'm not sure where it would be break-even. Possibly it would be in a dory on the west coast of Newfoundland where you burn two 45-gallon barrels of fuel a week and that's it, and your buyers supply the bait and all your equipment for you to go fishing.

Second is enforcement. I think we all know that hard times call for desperate measures. I'm concerned. The Alma fishery has always been, basically, a lobster-based fishery. That's all we've ever had up here. We haven't had a cod fishery. We haven't had sea urchins. We do have a scallop fishery, somewhat, but even that's being pushed, because everybody in the bay has a scallop licence now, so there are a lot more people involved in it. Our scallop quota this year was done pretty near a month early, because there are that many more people involved because of a poor lobster season.

Enforcement to protect stocks, to protect what we've built, has to be in place. I don't think we have that. I don't know if budgets need to be increased or what needs to be done, but we have some serious enforcement issues.

Third is markets. There have been some problems with the markets of late. Some of it is economic, some of it is PSP, and some of it is MSC certification. There are a whole lot of things. The recent announcement that the government, the federal and all the provincial governments together, put in $500,000 to do some marketing is a good step, but whether that will get us where we want to go, I don't know.

Those are the three priorities I've identified for 2009 to somehow get us through this.

For long-term goals, we need more science, and we need to somehow come out with a cull management system that works. We need to have something in place so that decisions can be made. As Greg Thompson said this morning, it would be best if they came from the bottom up. If they come from the bottom up, you're going to get cooperation. You're going to get input.

We're the fishermen. We're out there. We know what's there. We know what science is saying. If you look at our science reports, they're good for the Bay of Fundy. Any conservation measures that come from the bottom up, we're going to go with. They would be easy to enforce across the board. If we, the fishermen, were taken seriously, we'd put more input into it.

I had some notes from some of the presentations this morning. Everybody who comes before you, I think, will have an agenda. I have one. You can tell from my brief. I'm fighting the Petitcodiac Causeway, and not because I'm not green. I am green. The causeway was put in 40 years ago. It wasn't a good idea at that time. Taking it out the way they intend to do it is not a good idea either.

I've been involved in the fishery for a number of years. I have a son who's 23. He's currently fishing in Newfoundland because he couldn't afford to buy a lobster licence here. When he started fishing, we were offered $1.1 million for our lobster licence, for which I paid $65,000 six years prior. A whole lot of economic things went down in the 1990s that just snowballed.

Some good points were made this morning about the buyers. Historically, a lot of the fall lobsters were new shells, but they weren't hard shells. They were held in pounds in Deer Island and different places around and they were fed. When those lobsters went to market, they weren't pretty, because they had moss and so forth on them. They weren't as pretty a lobster as they're putting out at the CO2 facilities, but they were a healthy lobster. You could ship them, and they were full of meat, and a whole lot of other things. Maybe we have to look at the buying practices and the holding practices we currently have. Maybe they're costing us too much and not giving us the end product we want.

I was a buyer for a number of years. I'm some glad I'm not a buyer right now—although my buyer's in Florida, and I can't afford to go! But the buyers have dropped the ball on this. They no longer have to compete; it's a controlled industry. Whatever costs they incur, they're downloading to us. They all get together and have a meeting and decide what the shore price is going to be. If my buyer happens to have a little niche whereby he can move lobsters and give me more money, then he can't wholesale, if he does so.

There are many issues in the industry around buying practices that somebody seriously has to look into, because if the harvesters aren't protected we will not have an industry. Or we may have an industry, but it won't be employing rural Canada; it will be owned by corporations.

There was a comment this morning, I think by Mike Allen, about a tax-deferred account. I never heard tell of it before. It's a really good idea. If you look at the capitalization in the fishing industry in Scotia-Fundy, for any fisherman who wasn't incorporated—if you get over $50,000, you pay 50¢ on the dollar—it was a good idea to invest in bigger boats and whatever: you got your tax credit and your depreciation, and you were farther ahead to do that than you were to pay your 50% to the government. And we don't know what you do with our money, but.... If something like that had been in place for the fisheries back in the early 1990s, we might be in a lot better shape.

That's enough trouble for now. Thank you very much.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you very much.

Mr. Byrne.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Thanks, Mr. Chair, and thank you to both of our witnesses for providing some unique and memorable perspectives in what you've told us about the industry here.

I want to ask Joanne—and I want you to answer, Joanne, not on your own behalf but on behalf of your son who's fishing in Newfoundland—where exactly the tastiest lobsters are in Atlantic Canada.

1:20 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

We'll leave that as a rhetorical question, won't we?

1:20 p.m.

Alma Fishermen's Association

Joanne Butland

The Bay of Fundy has the tastiest lobsters.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Strike that from the record, Mr. Chair.

1:20 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Kerr Conservative West Nova, NS

That was a nice try, Gerry.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Both of you are telling us something that, although not universal, is being heard more and more. The conservation resource status is always a big issue with a fishery. It's always a major concern for fishermen to create the circumstances for a sustainable yield. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's the economics of this fishery that seem to be the fundamental problem in 2009, more so than the resource status issues. From the testimony and perspectives of the fishermen, it seems that there are LFAs that have significant resource issues, while a good portion of the LFAs in Atlantic Canada seem to have a management practice that is producing sustainable results.

One of the things that we as a committee have been struck by is the marketing of the product. We have a very high-value product that seems to be regularly marketed as a high-volume, low-value product. At least, that's where this seems to be going. McDonald's is now producing McLobster sandwiches, and Subway has a fast-food lobster sandwich of its own. This seems a bit inconsistent with the marketing position that lobsters have enjoyed in the past.

Is that a function of the fact that we have some pretty large-scale buyers and processing companies that dominate the industry? Is that what's driving this? Would smaller buyers, smaller processing operations, and boutique operations that concentrate on high quality for high-end consumers be better for this industry? I think this is an important point for the committee to grapple with.

1:25 p.m.

Alma Fishermen's Association

Joanne Butland

Do you want to hit that one?

1:25 p.m.

Alma Fishermen's Association

Jim Wood

I'll try to address that, Mr. Byrne.

I was in Europe at ANUGA, at the big international fish show in the late 1980s when I was really starting to get involved with this business. I was also directing Collins Seafood, which at the time was the only pound retail-wholesale operation. Catches were considerably lower than they are now. It was about this time of year when I was at that big show in Europe with another colleague representing a couple of other firms.

I had said to some of the local fishermen at the time, “Look, you guys come up with some lobster for Mother's Day and we'll give you an extra 50¢ a pound over whatever is being offered.” The guys who had their gear out said, “Oh, boy, that's great, 50¢ a pound is 50¢ a pound. We probably won't catch much.” I said, “Don't worry about it. We only want a thousand pounds for the local people coming in.” That was great.

I was over in Europe, and in those days transcontinental phone calls weren't in their infancy, but there were a lot fewer of them than now. I was called to the phone, and it was a gentleman from Paturel, who tore a strip off me from one end to the other. Who did I think I was bucking the shore price by offering 50¢ more? He wasn't satisfied that it was for a few thousand pounds, or maybe a little more, for a Mother's Day weekend.

I learned a real lesson that day: there are some people who are the movers and the shakers, and then there are the rest of us. Unfortunately, or not, I wasn't forced out of business. I didn't have to eat that and do this, and life went on. But it was a real lesson in economics at that time and in the ensuing years about who really controls the business and who really makes the money.

I wasn't kidding a few minutes ago when I said there are opportunities here--for a nickel, for a dime--to make a lot of money really quickly because of the fluidity of the product we're dealing with, the lobster. So whether it's a big company or a small individual, there are two different issues. A few years ago there were a lot more people involved. We were shipping lobsters out of Alma to Europe. We would ship so many thousand pounds a week to a couple of clients we'd dug up in Europe. But regulations, economics, transportation, and so forth make it very difficult for the individual small-time shipper. It can still be done, but that has become less and less of the operation of the business.

We designed some boxes at that time with our own logo on them, and we were contracting for some of the canneries to sell whole, cooked, frozen lobsters particularly to Europe, although we were involved with Japan at the same time. It was a tremendous product. There were a number of people. If you wouldn't buy my lobster, then you would. You would always try to balance two or three against the middle.

It's our strong impression that over the last few years, like every other commodity-based business, control of that industry has become more and more centralized. Lobster has become king in more ways than one. The industry sells 110 million pounds of lobster a year, and from 1999 to 2007 I think it averaged out at $6.10 a pound. Some years it was a bit more, but it was under $6 for only one year.

In the ensuing time, the buying, marketing, and handling have become concentrated in fewer and fewer hands, and there are fewer alternatives in selling the product. In other words, whether the product is fished in Prince Edward Island, New Brunswick, or Nova Scotia, the product tends to be funneled through a very few major buyers. The likelihood of a smaller outfit dealing directly with somebody in the United States has decreased significantly due to economics, regulations, and a number of other things, the same as in Europe.

I'm not sure that $250 million was lost to this industry, but I know that some significant money was made on that kind of volume. If you and I and another friend can control 60% to 80% of that, we tend to set the tone for the rest of the industry.

A few years ago, the only money being made in the fishery from a lot of buyers was the 20% difference in the value of the dollar. People didn't really make a lot on the lobster; they made it on the exchange. They flipped the exchange rate up with the product, and considerable money was made on the exchange. That's being dealt with.

If you can control it, as I think it's becoming increasingly controlled and centralized, you can really set the price, and you have the opportunity to make some money there.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you.

Monsieur Lévesque.

1:30 p.m.

Bloc

Yvon Lévesque Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC

Thank you for appearing here today.

Would you agree to the introduction of a product quality control board to restore trust in lobster products?

1:30 p.m.

Alma Fishermen's Association

Joanne Butland

I don't understand exactly what you mean.

1:30 p.m.

Bloc

Yvon Lévesque Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC

Would you agree to the idea of introducing quality control of the product put on the market, a certification control, for example?

1:30 p.m.

Alma Fishermen's Association

Joanne Butland

Do you mean that it be done locally?

1:30 p.m.

Bloc

Yvon Lévesque Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC

It would be a general control of the lobster product. That would affect virtually the entire lobster fishery, and the purpose would be to certify that Canadian lobster meets quality standards established by the government. The idea would be to introduce a system that would certify that quality control has been conducted, which would thus provide a quality guarantee.

1:30 p.m.

Alma Fishermen's Association

Joanne Butland

So that would be done by a government body.

1:30 p.m.

Bloc

Yvon Lévesque Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC

In fact, there could be an agreement between the two levels of government, the federal and provincial levels. It could even be done at the provincial level. That would be your choice. It would be up to the fishermen's associations to agree among themselves to determine which level of government could carry out quality control on the product, as is done for other food products. For example, it's being done in agriculture. So it could also be done in the fisheries.

1:30 p.m.

Alma Fishermen's Association

Joanne Butland

It could possibly be looked at. The one thing we have to understand is that there's a market for every lobster and we have to look at economic viability as well as sustainability.

When we talk about economic viability, if I'm a fisherman and I have a 10-week or a 12-week season and that's the timeframe I have to support myself, my family, and my crew for the year, then I have to take what I can catch. As long as I don't impact the sustainability of the stocks, okay? If I catch a jumbo lobster and he's a male and a ten-pounder and not really any good for conservation measures, he may be worth less in the marketplace, but on economic viability, I've already set my traps and it's good for me to bring that lobster in, unless it's a big conservation effort to put that lobster back.

So when we're looking at quality control, I think a big thing that has hurt our markets is that a lot of our buyers, like I said, have dropped the ball. There was a lot of money in the industry. They're dealing with a large volume of lobsters now and they're not doing the quality control that they used to.

When Jim and I were buyers here in Alma, if I didn't look after my lobster, that dead loss was mine. I couldn't download that on anybody. Now we see buyers that are having large amounts of dead loss, and that's simply because they're not looking after the product. When you buy a lobster, sure, you're going to get some soft-shells or you're going to get this or that, and they have to be culled out and sent to the processor. You might make your dollar markup on them, or 50¢, or you might make 25¢, but you return that value to your fisherman.

As far as quality control on what goes out of this country is concerned, yes, we should ensure that it's the best quality, whether that's a live lobster or a canned lobster, but I don't know whether the industry can afford the cost right now to do that certification, because certainly some of that will be downloaded on industry. Where we are right now, we can't.

1:35 p.m.

Bloc

Yvon Lévesque Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC

It has been suggested in previous meetings that some of the money paid to the department be used to purchase fishing licences in order to provide lobster marketing and advertising services, among other things. In the same way as we use licence plate revenues to maintain the roads, why not use licence revenues to provide the service that fishermen need in order to promote their products?

In addition, checking product quality and ensuring that products can be traced through the processor to the vendor would help protect you while protecting your product.

How would you view that?