Fisheries Committee on April 2nd, 2009

[Jim Wood]

Mr. Lévesque, I'm not sure I can respond directly, but I will try.

First of all, I think the private sector, the people who are handling the marketing of lobsters, the people who do that end of the industry, probably should be required to bear the cost of advertising, the cost of promoting to a certain degree, and the cost of marketing in a general way, much as any other commodity producer or somebody who manufactures or processes something would be responsible for that in the long run. That's not to say there isn't some kind of a role for interested fishermen or organizations....

Is it okay to continue?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

You can continue with your thought.

[Jim Wood]

Okay. Sorry, I thought that was the buzzer or I was being bombed.

Can you hear, sir? Okay.

A little outfit like ours, we were developing this and marketing this in Europe. We did this without government interference. Sometimes I think the people on the ground floor, in the field, are much better at marketing their product than the government. The government has a different role, I think. Because it is a common resource, a government has a role to promote that resource, but also to assist in the conservation of that resource in any way it can.

I guess due to a number of scares in the food industry--which we've all experienced, whether it's Maple Leaf products or mad cow disease out west or from the United States or from somewhere else--we've gotten a bit carried away with this. Regarding the traceability of lobsters, you want to know where they come from. They come from either Maine or Rhode Island. I'm not sure when I'm eating a meal in New Jersey whether it's really that important whether they came from Nova Scotia or New England or wherever. Traditionally the lobsters are somewhat different at different times of the year.

Certainly, when you were selling product into Europe, generally you were dealing with somebody who was at least reasonably reputable at the other end, who would not buy product that was substandard. So it was all in pretty good shape, otherwise it wouldn't survive the trans-Atlantic journey. The canneries and the other processors demanded a pretty high-quality standard for their product when they were buying it. I'll tell you, if your lobster didn't hit a certain protein level and a certain meat content level, they'd say, “I think yesterday was our last day of doing business, until you can smarten up.”

There's also this whole business of hydrating and moving lobsters around. Generally, I think we have to have some degree of reasonableness on this. We're dealing with a high volume. I know when we sell lobsters to Japan, certainly in the past.... I've had people stand over me while I cooked 1,000 pounds of lobster for a particular purpose, and they were just as particular and specific in terms of their container loads as they were for their own consumption.

We all want to know where the food comes from. We all want to know that it's handled properly. We have certain set standards. I think this is perhaps more of an issue for the processed product than it is for the live product, but I'm still open.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you, Mr. Wood.

Mr. Kerr.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to say welcome to both of you, and I'm very pleased you're here as part of this. It's very important.

Mr. Wood, I'm going to direct my snappers to Joanne. You wax more eloquently, and I want to get a few quick ones in. You can tag on the end, but if they pull the buzzer on me, I can't ask any more questions. If they pull it on you, you can keep going on for an hour if you want. Don't be insulted; I'm just trying to make a point here.

We are planning to go to Fundy, camping, and we have to eat lobster in Alma. I understand all that.

I have a couple of quick things. Actually, I'd like to see something about the Petitcodiac dam. Perhaps there's something in writing. I don't want to get into that this afternoon--I don't think we have time--but I think that's an interesting thing.

You talked about the marketing, and I just heard something slightly different. We're glad a marketing venture did start a bit this year—a very small start, I think you've indicated—where government can work with the industry. Would you care to comment on whether that type of partnership should continue? I was taking from Mr. Wood that perhaps it should be the industry's responsibility, which I wouldn't disagree with, but there's a lot of push this year for the government to step up and help with the marketing effort.

Do you want to comment on that?

[Joanne Butland]

I've been to some federal and provincial meetings, and I'm on the provincial Fundy Forum. This PSP issue has caused some issues, and it's going to be specific to the Bay of Fundy probably more than to anywhere else. I've heard the briefing. It was $500,000. It's not a massive amount of money. It may open a few doors to move off some of the product that we currently have in inventory.

Over the long term, I'd have to agree with Jim. I guess all the other industries are getting money, but I would like to see the government make every industry stand on its own feet and be accountable. If we do get money, it's on a loan basis—a long-term, low-interest loan or something. We're independent businesses. So are the fish buyers. Unfortunately, in the lobster industry, I don't think the lobster fishermen have ever got any significant money out of the government. It's been to the buyers and the processors. I don't know if they really need it, or if they just know they can get it.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

I appreciate that answer. Another question I have is on the enforcement.

I didn't quite understand where you would take that step on enforcement. I hear the term “generally” put forward, but what would you like to specifically see?

[Joanne Butland]

The biggest problem, and it's been around for years, is that when somebody is finally convicted of something, they get a $1,200 fine, a $2,000 fine. Here in LFA 35, if I get caught with 50 or 100 extra traps and I go to court, chances are I won't be found guilty, so it's no big deal anyway. If I'm not found guilty, I get my traps back. But if I am found guilty, I'll get a $2,000 fine, or maybe a $10,000 fine. One hundred traps at five pounds a trap over the whole season is a lot of money.

The risks far outweigh the penalties, and there's nothing to deter it. It's gone on for a number of years, and it hasn't been checked. We don't see the visibility of the enforcement officers.

You know, if you're driving down the road and you see the RCMP, you put your seat belt on. If you don't see an RCMP for weeks, you get a little slack and you don't wear it. I mean, it's human nature. If the enforcement isn't there, people are going to get away with stuff, and they've been doing it for years.

As far as the conservation measure, I've talked to several fishermen, and it's a big issue when they want the five-inch measure. We're not sure. In LFA 35, I don't think the five-inch measure is going to be the conservation measure they want. We don't have enough of them anymore. That's the same as in the gulf. In Newfoundland, I think the biggest lobster I ever bought was a three-pounder, and I might have seen one of those. So depending upon your area and your fishery, every conservation measure is going to be different.

With enforcement, I don't know if they need more money; I don't know if they need better people. We were talking today. What if you put them on a bonus for every conviction?

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Bounty hunters.

[Joanne Butland]

They get a percentage of the pie or something. In all honesty, there's no--

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Before we go down that one too far--

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

--don't know how this would look in the report.

I'm going to ask one last question, because you can wax almost as well as he can. This is tourism related. I'm going to ask you first and then ask Jim to comment.

Many, many tourists will tell us that when you can go into Maine or down the coast in the States, you feel very welcome and there is fresh product along the road. That's a really important part of the experience within our jurisdiction. I'm talking about Nova Scotia, and I'm sure it's the same in New Brunswick.

What do you see happening to change that? We talk about new market opportunities, and there's some right here in the homeland, if we do things differently. What do you see needs to be done? What is necessary to make it a very user-friendly activity for the travelling public? In other words, if I came to Alma this summer, could I find lobsters being steamed along the roadside, and fresh product and so on? Or is the regulatory process too heavy to let that happen?

Would you comment first and then perhaps Jim?

[Joanne Butland]

I think Alma's always been.... We've always been lucky in that sense. We fish until the end of July, and that's the boom of our tourist season. Actually there are three lobster shops in Alma now, and they take full advantage of that tourist market.

You can't go to see them being steamed, due to the regulatory process; the rooms have to be sanitized and so on. But you can buy a fresh lobster. You can pick out your live green one. The Japanese do it all the time. They bring a big busload in and they pick out their lobster. You have to cook it. They come back in an hour's time to pick it up, and you best make sure it is the one they picked out.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Would you like to see it expanded so they experience more of the fresh product?

[Joanne Butland]

I think New Brunswick could do something with that, and I think P.E.I. and Nova Scotia could also.

But I think that has to be done on a local level. I don't know if the government has to do that or if that's an issue we're going to have to come up with. Trust me, if I'm going to be offered $4 a pound this year, I'm not going fishing. I'm going to talk to my buyer and we're going to come up with a way that I get a percentage of what more he makes, and I'm going to come up with marketing strategies to move my fish.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Thank you.

[Jim Wood]

As a rule, in this particular port the selling of lobster right off the boat hasn't been a common practice. One of the reasons is that fresh-caught lobsters, at least in this area, generally have a gut full of herring or mackerel or some other bait, and generally if these lobsters are held for a couple of days, they eliminate that product from their gut and the taste tends to be a lot better.

I was particularly impressed when I first came down here, seeing the tableloads. Most places you buy a lobster, it's a big deal. There is one lobster, there is this, there is that. We can buy those green lobsters here and have them cooked, but it was a real thrill to be involved in the industry in selling not hundreds of pounds a weekend, but tonnes. To organize that and to see those people come in from all across the country, buying lobsters.... Lobsters were sized, not by pounds but by dollars.

You go to buy something and you say you'd like to buy some lobster. They ask how much money you have in your jeans. You reply you've got $20 for yourself and your lady. Okay, so you get $20 worth. You ask for $20 worth of lobster. They ask if you would like a big one or a couple of smaller ones. You reply you'll go for it. They tell you the big ones are good, they're really good, they're just cooked a little longer. Is a big, juicy roast of prime beef tasty? Of course it is. Do you cook it as you do a small steak? No, you don't, you do it differently, but they're equally good. That was a real thrill.

We used to have people lined up 25, 35 deep. That's why Joanne got into cooking and selling lobsters, because it was.... It wasn't necessarily to make a huge amount per pound, but you sold a lot of pounds and you had a lot of.... If you had sharp people on the cash and sharp people serving it, it was...and we didn't have the regulations at that time where you couldn't go in and look at it. Everybody came in. We had school kids in. We had busloads of tourists in. It was a fun time. It still is very much a fun time here on the wharf, particularly a weekend when the boats call. And because here we have the tides, we just can't go out and in when we want. Most of you would probably realize we have a 42-foot tide here most of the time. So we can really only enter and leave port for about four hours every tide, at high water.

If you have the wharves loaded with people, I think people really enjoy that. Some arrangements are made to take individuals out. I have had people come out with me a lot of different times, generally what we call high water. You're waiting for the boat to rise; the boat rises and you go like mad. You fish, fish, fish, fish; you come back in, and people have a real experience of what's going on. It's different from a day trip, but it's still very exciting, very thrilling. It's one of those things that make a really interesting trip here--the tides, the lobster, the whole thing.

But as far as cooking them in kettles along the side of the road, I was in Maine a couple of years ago and there was a super idea for a restaurant there. And if I get a chance to do that, it might happen. It was like the way we market lobster here. Put it on the table, fill it up, and all the people go ah. And they take that lobster away and eat it right outside.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you very much, Mr. Wood.

Mr. Wood, are you sure you're not from P.E.I. or Newfoundland? You sure have the gift.

On behalf of the....

Mr. Calkins?

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

I believe if you check the record, Mr. Stoffer said I could have his time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

I'm sorry, Mr. Stoffer doesn't share.

On behalf of the committee, I'd like to thank both of you for taking the time today and coming to meet with us and providing us with your feedback, your recommendations, and advice. It certainly was appreciated. If you have any further comments you'd like to make, and sometimes I forget to mention this, you can do so by forwarding that to the clerk's office. Within a two-week period, the transcripts of these meetings will all be available via the Internet.

Thank you very much once again.

We'll take a short break and we'll set up for the next presentation. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

We're ready to begin.

Today we have with us, from the Maritime Fishermen's Union, Christian Brun, the executive secretary.

Mr. Brun, thank you for being here with us this afternoon. I appreciate your taking the time out of your schedule to join us here in Alma. You'll probably notice throughout the proceedings today that there will be a little beeping noise. That's the time clock. Basically, we allow approximately 10 minutes for presentations. The members have timeframes that they have to adhere to, or I should say I ask them to adhere to, to ask their questions and for your responses as well. So if you hear the beeping throughout, don't be too alarmed, we're just trying to stay as close to the timeframe as we can.

Mr. Brun, I'll ask you to proceed at this time with any comments you'd like to make.

[Christian Brun, Executive Secretary, Maritime Fishermen's Union]

I appreciate your time, and I'll respect the last call for the bar when I hear the time.

Mr. Chairperson, committee members, industry representatives, members of the public, and other invited guests, I do appreciate your time to have us express our opinions and concerns around the lobster fishery.

I am actually going to wear a couple of different hats today. I'll be speaking mainly on the short-term situation and what I'd call a crisis surrounding the lobster fishery, and the long-term renewal of the lobster fishery is the second subject I'd like to make a few comments on.

My first hat is of the Maritime Fishermen's Union, so I'll be speaking to you on behalf of this organization. I will just give you a few indicators of who I do represent when I have this hat on. The MFU actually consists of representation of 1,500 inshore fishermen in New Brunswick, on the east coast of New Brunswick, and in Nova Scotia in three different pockets, actually: southwest Nova Scotia; in the area from the bridge to Pictou, Antigonish; and also in the Baddeck, Big Bras d'Or, all the way on the northern side of Cape Breton.

Of these inshore fish harvesters, 1,200 are in New Brunswick and approximately 300 in Nova Scotia. They are all owner-operator fish harvesters. They're mostly lobster fishermen. I would like to also add that, on average, and I would bring this back to New Brunswick, since we are in this province, net earnings before taxes of our member fish harvesters--I would not include the last year, so for 2005, 2006, 2007, we have pending reports coming from DFO, and this is DFO information--are somewhere around $10,000 to $12,000 before taxes. So that gives you an idea of what the situation is before we ever entered this crisis.

This fleet also consists of somewhere around 4,000 jobs--and I'm speaking again of the 1,200 New Brunswick fish harvesters--and it also has an asset value of somewhere around $180 million. Our fish harvesters mostly process the lobster that goes towards the processing market. This is a bit different from what you've probably heard going into southwest Nova Scotia and also in speaking to some of the fish harvesters in southern New Brunswick. Our lobster mostly goes to and depends on lobster plants. In other words, it has to go through a lobster plant, and it is mostly destined toward the buffet market in casinos, in middle-class restaurants, in cruise ships. It gives you an idea of where our product actually goes.

The MFU believes--and has been expressing this since November 2008--that we're entering one of the most challenging times in the lobster industry. We are probably going to enter a crisis that will be remembered for a long time in modern times. That is our feeling. We have been concentrating on the worst scenario--to be able to be surprised positively if it happens--but that is what we believe could be coming our way.

The factors that would bring on this meltdown, in our view, are the global economy in the U.S., a serious decrease in consumer buying of the types of products we are supplying, a credit crunch for fish buyers, high inventories--especially in P.E.I., with the information we have, but we can't confirm New Brunswick inventories actually, and that is part of the problem--and a spring lobster glut, not caused by New Brunswick fish harvesters for the most part, but by other products coming in from other provinces.

The MFU has actually proposed many solutions in the last few months to provincial and federal governments, none having been too well received by government. We've talked about some ways to be able to have some daily limits on landings or ways to be able to reduce landings, we've talked about inventory guarantees for processors, and we've talked about systems for a top-up of revenues by existing federal programs to be able to find a way to get our fish harvesters fishing for the whole of the 2009 season. We're worried about 2010 because we're not sure it's going to be much better.

We've also talked about having some form of system to reduce interest costs on capital loans for fish harvesters, or some way to be able to get through the year, first, to be able to harvest, and, second, to be able to survive or at least break even.

I'll give you a few anecdotes, indications of things that could make it bad. First of all, there are already many New Brunswick fish harvesters who haven't found buyers, and they've been quite aggressively seeking buyers for the lobster. There are a lot of rumours that the usual volumes that are being shifted from one group of buyers to another have been significantly reduced.

We have more than 300 helpers who have already been told they won't have employment. That's pretty well confirmed. This is related to the spring fishermen, somewhere around 700 taking off in the month of May. They've already let a lot of helpers go. They can't afford to have them tag along.

The question I will leave you with is the same one we left for Minister Gail Shea at our convention approximately two weeks ago. What will governments do to support fish harvester organizations for harvesters to be able to fish the whole 2009 season?

I would now like to maybe flip on another hat. I hope I'm doing okay with time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

You have two and a half minutes left.

[Christian Brun]

The other hat is of an alliance. We have created an alliance with the FFAW/CAW, with the alliance of Quebec fish harvesters; we have also included organizations in Nova Scotia—we have three of them that have recently joined our group. We are promoting—and this was the long term, so this is the second subject I mentioned I wanted to speak to you about—the renewal to change some underlying structural issues in our lobster fishery, and the Maritime Fishermen's Union has been promoting this as an organization for many years. But we've decided to get together with other organizations in Atlantic Canada to be able to demonstrate that there is commonality in our views and to demonstrate that some organizations and some groups of fish harvesters are looking towards a solution to rationalize this fishery and to renew this fishery so it can reach that potential that the lobster fishery quite clearly has in the long-term future.

There are not many areas where you can find the Homarus americanus, so I think there's an advantage in terms of having to make sure we manage our fishery in the right way to be able to keep it healthy. But we think some other areas are not managing it well, and I think there's huge potential in terms of increases in value for this fishery. We are trying to state in our proposal to be able to reach this potential. This means a lot of things. This means what we've been talking about for quite a few years. It means a reduction in fleets that do not have the minimum viability to be able to make the changes that are necessary to take on the challenges that are coming our way. We've all heard about what's coming our way. It's certification, traceability, and we can name a lot of these challenges coming up. I'm sure you've heard a lot about that, so I won't repeat them.

European investment in decommissioning has been quite important in the last few years. They've realized the importance of doing it, they are doing it, and they are creating a competitive advantage for their fisheries. I can name a few. Denmark has recently invested in decommissioning, and a few other countries have. The U.K. has, and Australia is considering quite an important investment. So we are not alone in this, but we are competing in a global market for this lobster industry.

I heard the bell ring. I'm just going to cut this short and say that our members have quite clearly indicated to us that there is a sense, a feeling, of abandonment in the midst of this crisis and in the midst of the need to find a long-term solution and make the changes that are necessary for our fish harvesters to adapt, adjust, and be able to take on what's coming towards them. And they're not able to do that now.

I thank you for your time, and I welcome questions if there are any.