Evidence of meeting #26 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fishermen.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Organizer and Coordinator, Special Projects, Maritime Fishermen's Union
In New Brunswick it's almost 100%, about 80%. There are some down at the bottom that aren't members.
In Nova Scotia our membership is smaller, but there are other organizations in Nova Scotia that are part of the alliance as well. I hate to put a number on it, but it's close to that.
Executive Director, Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association
In Prince Edward Island we haven't signed on to it yet, simply for some technical reasons. It's something we are still discussing; it's just that the timeframe hasn't been appropriate for us at this point.
Conservative
Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB
Okay.
The amount you're asking from the federal government is $233 million over five years. I'd like you to clarify this for me, because I think you're asking for basically the majority of it in the form of loan guarantees.
On page 6 of the report, you also talk about there being a number of immediately applicable options to be considered, including adjustment of licence fees to reflect current landed values, debt and tax relief, and then lower interest credit. Is what you're talking about there basically in the form of loan guarantees, primarily from the federal government, to set this pot up?
President, Fish, Food and Allied Workers
I'll see if I can find how much of that total of $233 million would be from Newfoundland. There is already a willingness on the part of the Newfoundland government, as I mentioned, to come to the table.
It would be a combination of putting money in place to provide access to capital for the fishermen to do their share, but also I think it should be cost-shared. If the entire cost of buying out those licences goes on to the next generation of harvesters, the financial resilience of their enterprises will be seriously compromised. The amount of costs in addition to the operational costs associated with business with very volatile returns in terms of prices and in terms of the available resource will leave weak enterprises. We have an opportunity as we go into that next generation to try to fix that, so it would be a combination of direct contributions to a fund to stabilize the industry with the kinds of conditions I mentioned earlier attached and also a combination of probably loans and grants.
At the moment, we haven't had any take-up at all. The provincial government has said, “We have 30% here; Ottawa, are you there with 70%?” The silence to date has been fairly deafening.
Conservative
Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB
One of the things that has been discussed before in terms of restructuring the industry is what kinds of things you can do to prevent effort creep. In the past history of some of these things there's been effort creep, so that's one of the reasons I wanted to ask who is buying into this report. But ultimately, at the end of the day, how do you prevent that effort creep?
President, Fish, Food and Allied Workers
I think that's a very important question.
I suppose somebody could say that if there's nothing done, then the economics will force people out, and in the long run that might be tough medicine, but it's good. The problem with that is what you then have remaining is this latent capacity. These licences are still in place, and even if somebody doesn't fish them for a period of time, as soon as things look up, all of a sudden that effort goes back in.
Something that permanently removes licences deals with exactly that issue. And I think it's very important to do so, because otherwise you could spend a lot of money and not really accomplish very much in doing so, and who wants to do that?
So we're cognizant of that. For this to work, there have to be.... The purpose of it is not to kick anybody out or force anybody out; it should be voluntary. But as people either reach retirement age or reach the point where they just decide they've had enough of it, or whatever reasons they have for getting out, as they get out we'll find a way that in fact that doesn't creep back in by virtue of the licence sort of hanging around in a dormant capacity. We've seen that in the past. A licence will be dormant for a period of time, and as soon as a resource or a market starts to pick up, bang, that effort comes right back into the fishery again.
Executive Director, Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association
It's a mix of parallel programs, as well, through rationalization, in terms of perhaps eco-labelling, ocean-to-plate process, where the nature of fishing will change, where you're fishing for the market as opposed to fishing for the quantity, as we have been doing.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
Thank you very much.
We're talking about this rationalization, and I agree that it should be an eastern Canadian rationalization program.
Now, Earle and Ed, and Ruth too, you talk about the fact that the entire cost of rationalization cannot be left on the shoulders of the next generation of harvesters. Some people I represent—and Ed gave the figures here—have a net income of about $4,000 from the fishery, including EI. Are you just talking about federal and provincial governments? I don't know how the industry, with this situation and the catches that are being taken in those areas, has any way of having input into rationalization except the governments taking the fleets out—and I mean “out and gone”, not to re-enter the fishery.
Would anybody like to comment on that?
President, Fish, Food and Allied Workers
Well, certainly from our point of view, we have a number of fisheries that are fisheries that people want to be in, that have significant economic value to them. In most cases, if you look at the amount of quota and the cost of catching it, if we could shave those numbers down a little, then you'd have a much better balance than we now have, instead of the entire cost going to the harvesters.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
They're talking about shaving the numbers down with people who are in fact going in the hole. And if they don't get the EI package this year, they're broke. That's the problem.
Ruth or Ed, would you like to comment on that?
Executive Director, Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association
Well, you're right, Mr. MacAulay, in terms of the EI situation for this year and possibly the next couple of years.
In terms of the rationalization, we see it as a three-pronged approach: cash infusion by the federal government; our province is on record, essentially, as saying that they are prepared to provide something in the way of a long-term loan that would be repayable by those people remaining in the industry--
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
Can I just stop you there?
Do you mean you would have to deal with LFA by LFA, not the total industry of 26A and 25 in Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island? If one of the areas, area 24 or one of Ruth's areas, decides they don't wish to be involved in the rationalization, and you represent the MFU for them, you're not taking them in too, are you?
Executive Director, Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association
No, it would be completely voluntary, absolutely.
Liberal
Executive Director, Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association
The way the fishing is conducted, there might be a different application to each LFA, based on particular circumstances in that area, but the repayment would come.... We calculate, for example, in Prince Edward Island, to get out 20% of our licences, a repayment over 25 years would amount to something like $800 per year per fisherman.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
But you're recommending that the fishermen, let's say in 26A, pay $800 a year for the rationalization program?
Executive Director, Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association
Those who remain in the industry, yes, after the people are bought out.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
With the situation and the catches there, I guess if the fishermen agree, I agree.
Executive Director, Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association
The option, of course, Mr. MacAulay, is that the catches for those who remain will increase, corresponding to those who leave.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
My problem with this is that you're putting a debt on people who are not making ends meet at the moment. But again, if the fishermen agree, that's okay.
Executive Director, Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association
Believe me, it hasn't gone through the whole process of having a vote by the fishermen themselves. This is just a recommendation at this point, and it stems from those discussions around our lobster round table.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
I'd better pass. I would....
The way you're going to handle it, then, would be a vote in each LFA, if they wish to be involved in the rationalization or not. I wouldn't mind the three of you responding.
It's in different areas in Newfoundland, and you're talking about different fisheries. You represent areas that are doing quite well in the fishery and some that are not. I'd like the three of you to respond on how you're going to propose the rationalization process to the government without ruining the people who are left in the industry.
