Fisheries Committee on May 14th, 2009

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I would gladly share my time with my colleague from Humber--St. Barbe--Baie Verte.

Just a little synopsis.... We've heard of the importance of an Atlantic-wide buy-back program for lobster fishermen. A particular program, if it were to come, would take some time to get some nuts and bolts around it. So really, when you're looking at that, you're looking at a solution for next year perhaps. It would take some time to get that particular program up and running, and it would only affect a certain number of fishermen.

From my perspective, I'm seeing two aspects here. I'm seeing the buy-back as an important issue we've heard a lot about that needs to be started, and I'd like to go a little bit into the EI for this year's fishing season and how we can help some of these fishermen get through the next couple of years.

Ed, I know you've talked about a pilot project on taking last year's earnings for this year. I wonder if you could just explain about that a little.

I know Mr. McCurdy mentioned a pilot project. Earle, was that the same type of project you were thinking of as well? Is there another option, an EI option, that could be put on the table here, from your perspective, or is what you were referring to the same as what Ed was referring to?

[Ed Frenette]

In terms of our proposal, basing it on the 2008 EI program, the reason for this is that landings are so low in certain areas that people may not be eligible, based on 2009 landings.

We did a little calculation at the beginning of the season when our lobster prices were $3.00 and $3.50. It would require a captain and a crew member to be able to draw fishers' EI from July until November to land 11,400 pounds of lobster. There are a number of areas where that is simply impossible for fishermen to land this year. And when you consider the price, that one-sixteenth or whatever it is that EI uses for its calculations, it's simply impossible. They'll have no income at all over the course of the winter. That's why we're insisting it go back to 2008 levels.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Earle.

[Earle McCurdy]

I have just a couple of points. I'll bounce back for a second to the buyout issue. It really benefits potentially everyone, because although it directly benefits those who avail themselves of the opportunity to sell out, as some leave, those who remain benefit, because the pie has been cut up into fewer pieces. It's really a benefit for everybody.

What I was primarily driving at was that the feature of the EI act that allows for pilot projects in a fairly broad way to address issues in the economy and objectives of the government struck me as a useful vehicle for acting quickly on things. Something along the lines that it describes is certainly one way.

Another--and I don't know this, because we haven't vetted this with anybody, and it's a bit off the top of my head--might be to say that people have an option to simply turn in their lobster permits for the year and extend their EI benefit instead, as a choice. To me it doesn't make sense for us to be putting more lobster into a market that's already saying they don't want the stuff they've already got. That's the dilemma I see: something that helps somebody who has that problem hang in there may create a problem for us next year.

That's what I'm trying to get my head around. With the best of good faith in trying to address a serious problem, how do we avoid extending the duration of that problem because we're just feeding that glut in the market, which is what's really killing our prices at the moment?

We need anything that helps us get around that. I just thought the EI program, in particular the pilot project feature, might be a useful and accessible vehicle for doing so.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Mr. McCurdy, another serious issue that I wanted to raise with you is the circumstances of ice conditions on the northeast coast, the northern peninsula and Labrador.

On April 22 the government did announce, through Diane Finley, that it was aware of the seriousness of the ice conditions problem and its effects on income for fishermen, that it was working with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans on a response, and that it would be announcing that response soon.

I've asked at least nine questions in the House of Commons and through this committee. It's been reinforced each and every time that it was indeed still the case. Unfortunately, we've just heard from both the deputy minister and the minister that DFO does not believe there were any serious ice conditions on the northeast coast this year.

Could you elaborate to the committee your impressions or your understanding? Could you tell us as well as what the impact on income to those fishermen will be without some income support?

[Earle McCurdy]

I had an opportunity to hear the exchange between you, Mr. Byrne, and the deputy minister, and I was shocked. The information she was relying on was just not accurate. I've had phone calls galore, and I've had e-mails and pictures of communities jam-packed with ice sent to me. There are areas where they haven't been able to get on the water for one single day. The last cheques coming into their households would have been several weeks ago. It was a pressing matter on April 22.

I saw those remarks. I saw the transcript of Minister Finley's remarks in the House, which certainly gave a lot of hope to people that this would be addressed, and I really was quite appalled to hear the exchange with the deputy minister. She's describing a neck of the woods that's different from what I'm living in.

There's a very severe problem. People are without income. There's serious hardship on a lot of families, and they're getting really desperate.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Stoffer.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. McCurdy, after the seal ban in the EU we had the lobster crisis, and now it's the ice crisis. Your province is getting smacked on the head from all sides. I'm just amazed by the resiliency of the fishermen and their families in having to go through all of this.

[Earle McCurdy]

Other than that, things are going pretty good.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

How much time do we have left? How quickly do we have to have a plan up and running for these fishermen before they start claiming bankruptcy, going to the province, and that kind of stuff? How much time do we have?

[Earle McCurdy]

It's hard to put a date on it. All I can tell you is that having hundreds of people showing up to meetings in the way that's happening now, saying that they're not going out fishing lobster and that they're going to tie up, is unprecedented in my time, so it's urgent.

I see more of that kind of action out of desperation. People are just at their wits' end and are asking what they're going to do. I think it's critical for something to happen immediately on the short-term issues, and that will at least allow enough of a breather to have a good crack at the longer-term structural problem.

By the way, since you mentioned our province, the Newfoundland government is on the record as being willing to fund 30% of the cost of a licence reduction program. If the federal government comes to the table, our members are willing to pay part of the cost of having a fleet reduction program. The missing party at the table, at the moment, is the federal government.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Very good.

Have any of your organizations had an opportunity to research what the average fleet rationalization would be in P.E.I. or New Brunswick or Newfoundland and Labrador? What would the government be looking at in costs? Because I know that this is the question the government's asked. What is the ask? How much money are you looking at for a particular fund for this region or that region?

I know that there are obviously differences in fleet rationalization costs or prices between P.E.I. and Newfoundland and southwest Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. It will be interesting to see if you've had a chance to get a sort of ballpark figure on that.

[Ed Frenette]

To date, with the process we've undertaken in Prince Edward Island, the average price has been $200,000, which retires the core licences completely. This is based not so much on the market value of the licence but on, first of all, getting it out of the water, and second, supplying those individuals who are selling out with some element of basic dignity. They're going to be older people, for the most part, who have used up their savings, sold their land, and maxed out their credit cards. Their RRSPs are gone. They require some dignity when they retire. We want them to continue to stay in their coastal communities, and hopefully those who are willing can be retrained for some other options so they can contribute to those communities in their retirement. But the $200,000 figure is the one we're using.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Ruth.

[Ruth Inniss]

I don't have an exact figure, but I know that it totally depends on the area, as you said. It would completely depend on the area. But as Ed said, it will be older people, and they'll be looking at this mostly for their retirement and so on. If they're not, and they're younger people--and this is something I was going to bring up earlier--retraining or training and opportunities within their communities to keep them employed and keep them viable is another really important facet of this problem.

I just wanted to touch as well on the question you asked earlier about what kind of timeline we have to fix this problem. To give you an idea, and I'm sure you know this, the fishery they're fishing right now started at the beginning of May, and it's a ten-week fishery. So that doesn't leave us very much time. When we're talking about loan relief, they're making their payments now. When we're talking about EI, it's going to be within the next very short while that they'll be having to apply for their EI. In LFA 27, they're loading their boats today and they're going tomorrow.

It's going to be interesting to wait and see what happens up there. Some of their buyers are saying that they're going to be getting $4 a pound up there; they're the market for lobster now, and they're going to be getting $4 a pound. But we'll see. So that's just another ten weeks after you have a whole other LFA.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you all very much for coming.

[Earle McCurdy]

On the last one--

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

We have a really informal atmosphere here, and I think it only supports the intentions of our committee, but I just noticed one of my colleagues pass a note to a witness. It kind of destroys the credibility of our witnesses. I'm sure it was casual, and I'm sure it was nothing that is a federal issue. But I just think, as a principle, that we shouldn't be passing notes to witnesses in the course of a hearing, because it suggests a lack of objectivity and independence on the part of our witnesses.

I don't mean to offend my colleague. I just think that as a policy, we probably shouldn't be doing that, for the benefit of the public.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

I didn't see the event. I apologize for not paying attention to that.

It's not a point of order, Mr. Weston, but certainly it would be a point you've made. Beyond that, it does not stand as a point of order in the rules.

Mr. McCurdy, would you like to finish up?

[Earle McCurdy]

I was going to make a comment with reference to Mr. Stoffer's question in relation to the licence rationalization. The last figure I saw was 169 so-called combined transactions in our province where one or more licence holders bought another one out of an entire enterprise and the number of licensed fishing enterprises was reduced each time that happened. That cost has been entirely borne by industry. I would say the range of price tags on those went anywhere from, at the low end, perhaps $100,000, to in excess of $1 million, entirely funded by industry.

The detailed proposal that we prepared through our alliance we costed out with an objective of reducing the fleets by one third. Over a five-year period, the total cost by all participants, where everybody came to the table, was $350 million, which would achieve the objective, by our estimates. That's using some fairly general assumptions as to what the average would be, and so on, but you have to start with something, just to give you an idea of the kind of order of magnitude.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you, gentlemen.

Mr. Allen.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming today.

I have a few questions I want to ask about the action plan for fleet rationalization. This was prepared by the alliance. Can you tell me what percentage of fishers this would represent from the alliance as compared to all fishers? I'm assuming that it's a significant percentage, but can you tell me what percentage would be involved in this type of thing?

[Earle McCurdy]

Do you mean our members of these constituent groups?

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

How many would be covered, of the total fishers?

[Earle McCurdy]

In our province, it's virtually 100%. There's a small percentage in northern Labrador that aren't part of our organization. Otherwise, our membership would constitute the full province, which would be, I don't recall the exact number, but in excess of 4,000 in what I would call core fishing enterprises, which are ones that are transferrable. There are other non-core ones, which essentially die with the incumbent licence holder. So it would be virtually 100% of those. I can't speak for other provinces.