Evidence of meeting #39 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was convention.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Patrick McGuinness  President, Fisheries Council of Canada
Bruce Chapman  Executive Director, Groundfish Enterprise Allocation Council
Randy Jenkins  Director, Enforcement Branch, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Kevin G. Anderson  Director, Conservation and Protection Division, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

4:30 p.m.

Executive Director, Groundfish Enterprise Allocation Council

Bruce Chapman

We currently have two objections alive and well at NAFO. One is by Iceland on 3M shrimp on the Flemish Cap, and that particular objection is to the management regime that's out there, the days on ground as opposed to a quota system. They've put in place a quota system that is arguably comparable to their days on ground.

That does not cause me great concern. It's a philosophical objection as much as anything else. Frankly, the Government of Canada and Canadian industry would agree with Iceland that we need to move forward to a total allowable catch and quota system for that stock, like all other stocks we have.

The other type of objection they have there is with Denmark for the Faroes and Greenland. They simply say they think their share should be more and better than it is, and until it gets better they'll set their own TAC unilaterally. There is no other recourse, no other process; there's nothing in the existing convention to change that.

That objection has been annualized and rolled over every year for many years now. It is very similar to the objection the EU used to have years ago on species and stocks like the Greenland halibut. There is no recourse currently. At least under the new convention, there is a timetable and process that may take some months, but at least within a year's cycle you can, in effect, bring that one to ground, if I understand the timetables properly.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you very much, gentlemen.

On behalf of the committee, I want to say thank you very much for coming today and appearing before our committee. We really appreciate the time that you've put in here.

We'll take a five-minute recess while we change to our next guests. Thank you.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

I ask members to please take their seats and we'll resume.

Before we begin with our next guest, we will distribute the subcommittee report that was discussed here a few weeks ago.

As we planned for future meetings, this is what was decided by your subcommittee. There have been some names submitted of more witnesses with respect to the NAFO convention. The subcommittee had determined that we would allot three meetings for dealing with the NAFO amendment and with the additional witness' names that have been put forward. We need to have some discussion about how much more time we want to commit to the NAFO amendment.

As you can see from the subcommittee report, the October 20 and October 22 meetings have been held with respect to the NAFO convention. The October 27 meeting would be Boris Worm and NAFO, and we tentatively scheduled October 29 for an update on small craft harbours, as well as November 3 and November 5.

Going forward, it's small craft harbours for the following two meetings, November 17 and November 19; and November 24 we set aside for a discussion of work plans and terms of reference for the study that we talked about on Pacific salmon in B.C.

Mr. Byrne, did you want to make a few comments?

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Yes. The committee has decided to continue with this. I put forward a list of potential witnesses that I think would add great value to our committee. We've heard today from the FCC, the Fisheries Council of Canada, and others. I'll cut right to the chase.

I want to recommend Bill Rowat as someone this committee needs to hear from. He's a former Deputy Minister of Fisheries and Oceans Canada.

George Rose, I understand, was contacted for next Tuesday but wasn't available for that particular day. Dr. Rose is extremely anxious to appear before this committee. He's a former chair of the Fisheries Conservation Group from the Memorial University of Newfoundland.

To get the other side, we've heard from the FCC and others today.

Gus Etchegary, a former president of FPI, is now one of the driving forces behind the Fisheries Community Alliance. It's a very active group in terms of supporting fisheries conservation and has expressed some opinions about this particular NAFO treaty. I think it would be very important for the committee to hear from them and, as well, David Vardy and Les Dean, both of whom are former Deputy Ministers of Fisheries and Aquaculture of the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture in the province of Newfoundland and Labrador and, I think, former participants in the NAFO process, who may have actually played a very fundamental role in some of the past decisions and format.

Since we have taken the time as a committee to decide some time ago that we needed to address all aspects of this particular issue rather than deal with my motion two weeks ago, and we decided that we need to hear those witnesses, I really think a former Deputy Minister of Fisheries and Oceans Canada, two former Deputy Ministers of Fisheries and Aquaculture in the province of Newfoundland and Labrador, and Gus Etchegary, who represents fishing industry interests in the province of Newfoundland and Labrador, and George Rose, a fisheries scientist and former chair of fisheries conservation, would be great fellows to hear from. So I'd ask the committee to support that.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Are there any questions or comments?

From what I'm hearing from Mr. Byrne, we'd have to dedicate another two meeting days, I would say, to witnesses, so if that's the committee's wish....

Mr. Kamp.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Kamp Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC

I guess my comment is that we've been putting off the small craft harbours program report for a long, long time, and we do need to get to that. We have already heard from a number of former officials of DFO, perhaps not the ones from Newfoundland and Labrador, so I think we're reasonably well represented there, having heard from them and seeing their testimony as well before the Senate.

My personal opinion would be that this side of the argument, if there is a side that they take, is already fairly well represented at this point.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you, Mr. Kamp.

Mr. Byrne.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

As I say, Mr. Chair, that was a very specific point that I raised two weeks ago as to whether or not it was time for the committee to move on to another issue. The wish of the committee was no, it was not. More study needed to be done on this. We had to hear from Minister Tom Hedderson or the Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador even though two days earlier Minister Tom Hedderson had appeared before the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade.

In order to provide balance to the witnesses that we've heard thus far, especially the additional witnesses, I really think the committee decided that more testimony was required, that it was not time to clue this up two weeks ago. I specifically raised the point about its impact on other business. That was not a factor. I am now simply saying that to provide balance to some of the testimony we've heard, I think hearing from a former Deputy Minister of Fisheries and Oceans; two former deputy ministers from the province; Gus Etchegary, who represents fishing stakeholders from the province of Newfoundland and Labrador—probably, yes, admittedly on a different side of the fence from what Bruce Chapman and Patrick McGuinness may be on, but still a very valuable opinion to hear from—and, of course, George Rose.... We're hearing from academics on Tuesday. George Rose is a former chair of fisheries conservation at Memorial University. I think his testimony would be quite in order.

I simply ask my colleagues on the committee, in the spirit of what happened two weeks ago, that we now do what we say and let's hear a good, full, broad-based repertoire of testimony from a broad swath of witnesses.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you, Mr. Byrne.

Mr. Stoffer.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

In fairness, and Randy would know, we've asked the government, appropriately, to delay any kind of ratification—I think 21 days, if I'm not mistaken—and the purpose was to have an enhanced study.

I would tend to agree with Mr. Byrne on this one, but my question for Mr. Byrne is this. Instead of having four or five days of this, would it be possible to bring them in as a group and to do it in one day? Would they all agree, more on less, on the same instance? Or would you need a couple of days for that?

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

I think it's possible, but a lot of it depends on schedules.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

I understand that.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Obviously we have to contact the individuals to see what their schedules will allow. But yes, it's possible to bring in more than one, as we just saw here with the witnesses before, where there was more than one group represented at the table at one time. So yes, we can look into that.

I was just judging by the numbers that Mr. Byrne put forward as a number of potential witnesses, and it's probably going to add a couple of more committee days. To be fair to the witnesses as well, you don't want to bring them in and have them be part of some side show here. You want them to be able to express their opinions and their views with the amount of time that they deem necessary to do so.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

That's fine.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

I appreciate that, Mr. Stoffer.

Monsieur Blais.

4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

You know that I am all for cooperation. In this file, in particular, I am not at all questioning the list of people put forward to appear before us to give their version of the story. I see that we will have a chance to talk to fishery conservation officers. I have no problem with the choice of witnesses. The same goes for the opposite point of view. We are talking about the opposite point of view, but ultimately, it is an informative point of view. That is how I see it.

I think that my colleague's request is appropriate. I am willing to support additional meetings to bring the necessary clarity to this file. But I am not at all questioning the choice of witnesses from one party or another. These people no doubt make choices in good faith and call on witnesses who will help us to understand an issue better. That is what our witnesses just did a few minutes ago, and I would imagine that future witnesses will do the same.

With that in mind, I urge everyone to support adding two extra meetings so that we can hear from witnesses and then brings things to a close. We do have a deadline of sorts. I appreciate that we need to give ourselves more time, but we cannot stretch things out too long, either.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you, Monsieur Blais.

Are there any more comments on that subject?

Mr. Allen.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have a quick comment, and maybe there's a clarification that Mr. Byrne could give me, because I don't want to tie our witnesses up any longer.

I'm okay with bringing some more witnesses in. I would ask for some clarification as to whether we can pare that list down a little bit. Why two deputy ministers? Can we pick one of them to speak on that behalf and to try to do that? And would there be a possibility that we could put forth a witness as well on that?

I would ask Mr. Byrne. I'm not opposed to the witnesses, I'd just like to maybe trim it down a little bit and ask why two.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

I think it's a valid question, and if you want to put forward other names as well, you'll certainly have every opportunity to do that.

Mr. Byrne.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

The most obvious answer to that question would be that they represented the province of Newfoundland at different periods of time, different historical periods.

David Vardy and Les Dean were part of the NAFO process, part of the international management process, during two very discrete and specific times, and their perspectives in that regard would be extremely valuable.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

If there's no more discussion, I'll ask the clerk to come back with a revised work plan and contact the individuals as to their availability. Thank you.

At this time, I'd like to welcome our guests.

I'm sorry for the delay, gentlemen. We really do appreciate your taking the time today to appear before this committee. I'm not sure who's going to be leading the discussion.

Mr. Jenkins, you'll be leading the discussion. I would ask, if you want to make some opening comments, that you do so at this time.

You'll probably hear a beeping noise up here. You probably noticed as you were sitting listening to the last guests that there are some time constraints that we try to adhere to. We generally allow about 10 minutes for opening comments. Don't feel you have to use the entire 10 minutes if you don't feel it necessary. When you're making your comments, I'd ask if you could introduce your associate with you as well.

Please proceed at any time, Mr. Jenkins.

October 22nd, 2009 / 4:50 p.m.

Randy Jenkins Director, Enforcement Branch, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you all for the welcome and the opportunity to come here today to speak to you.

As you probably guessed from the green uniforms, we're from conservation and protection, enforcement branch.

To give you a quick introduction, my colleague Kevin and I are both from Newfoundland coincidentally, although he currently works in Newfoundland, in the St. John's office, and he is the director responsible for the operational aspect of our program, including the NAFO component. I, on the other hand, work here at 200 Kent Street. I moved from Newfoundland in 2005 and I currently look after more of the policy side of our operational programs.

What we thought we would do today is have Kevin give you a quick overview of the operational side of the program of NAFO and how it fits into the scheme, and then, of course, we'll offer you some great answers to your great questions at the end of the session.

Kevin and I both started as fishery officers and have both worked offshore. We've been to sea, we've flown, we were in port. We know first-hand what goes on in the NAFO regulatory area and we know what the fish look like and smell like and we also know what it's like to be seasick. We've been there.

I'm going to turn it over to Mr. Anderson.

Thank you.

4:55 p.m.

Kevin G. Anderson Director, Conservation and Protection Division, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Thank you, Randy.

We've handed out a document that outlines what we hope to present here today. We'd like to show how the monitoring, control, and surveillance program applies to the reform process. We would also like to describe the elements of the current Canadian NAFO enforcement program and some of the progress we've made in recent years.

The NAFO reform process has two elements. First, we have the convention reform process, which my colleague and I are not in a position to speak to. Second, we have the reform of the NAFO conservation enforcement measures, which took place in 2005 and 2006. Specifically, we would like to speak about the elements of this process as they pertain to monitoring, control, and surveillance. We would then like to review the effectiveness of the existing NAFO monitoring, control, and surveillance regime in the context of the fight against illegal, unreported, and unregulated fishing. In this way, we hope to determine the changes needed to strengthen the scheme and make it more effective and efficient in its operations, results, and expenditures.

I turn now to key elements coming out of the post-reform process and key measures we have achieved. There is now an enhanced follow-up provision in regard to certain serious infringements such as misreporting of catch, misreporting of area, and targeting species under moratoriums. This provision allows for the immediate recall to port of a vessel suspected of being in contravention of the measures.

In addition, we have clarified for NAFO members the penalties and sanctions that may be employed by flag states for serious infringements. This results in greater transparency. It forces them to state what happened to these citations and what they did about it.

We've also achieved improved control measures for stocks identified in our rebuilding plan. For example, we now have a provision under which all vessels that fish for Greenland halibut in the NAFO regulatory area must be inspected upon returning to port, including Canadian vessels.

We have enhanced bycatch requirements and established the definitions of bycatch and directed fishing. We have achieved provisions whereby vessels have to move when they encounter excessive bycatch. In the most recent measures, as they pertain to 3M cod and the opening of that fishery, we have retained 5% as opposed to the more normal 10% for actual directed fisheries.

We have achieved improvements in the recording of catch and stowage plans. For enforcement officers, stowage plans are very important. It's our way of understanding what's actually being put in a particular part of the vessel's hold. As one inspector leaves and the next inspector comes on board a few days later, you get a good picture of what fish are being stowed where. It's an important component, something we achieved as recently as 2006.

Enhanced port state control has been achieved as well. Since last year, before entering a port state, flag states have been required to declare that the catch on board is proper, that all the procedures are in place, and that all the proper authorizations have been acquired. We have also achieved an improved vessel monitoring system. In the recent NAFO meetings in Norway, these measures were updated and improved, so that now we will get one-hour reporting as well as the reporting of course and speed.

Within the NAFO regulatory area, I want to bring to your attention the areas known as 3M and 3N. That is the nose and tail and the Flemish Cap, and it is principally the area we're talking about. We're equally responsible for sovereignty and the patrol of boundary lines.

Canada spends approximately $30 million a year on the NAFO enforcement program. This includes our program, the conservation and protection program, the coast guard vessels, the air surveillance contract, and contributions from the Department of National Defence, which also patrols in airplanes and aboard ships. We have, as a result of that, approximately 800 dedicated coast guard and DND days for patrol in the NAFO regulatory area. I would like to highlight that the way we manage, the vessels are actually on alternate weeks. We want to maximize our presence as much as possible. On the return to port, they get approximately 12 hours' turnaround to change crews, change fisheries officers, provision and so on, and get back out.

A very important component of our program is that we stay out in all weather. In the recent storms, with winds of 100 knots, the Cygnus was on patrol. We are also out there during Christmas and the holiday season. We don't alter the program in any seasonal way.

We have 23 inspectors in the NAFO unit. Some of these inspectors have 25 and 30 years' experience; others have less. These inspectors receive various types of training in addition to the regular fishery officer program and are often seen by their colleagues in the NAFO area as people they can look to. They provide training for people from other countries, and we have had requests—as recently as last week from St. Pierre, for example—for training on import inspections. We also provide on-site training for United States inspectors, as well as some from Europe—the Baltic states, and so on.

We have an air surveillance program dedicated, contracted, and delivered by provincial airlines as well as by the Department of National Defence. I would like to note that the significance of the air surveillance program is the coverage area, of course—we have close to 300 flights a year in the area—but it also has significance for sovereignty, for the protection of Canada's 200-mile limit.

The air surveillance program contributes to our marine security program in a broader sense as well, but the air surveillance program has been instrumental in addressing the issue of boundary line violations that were so prevalent back in the 1980s. And of course it's very important for us, in gathering data, to match up with other sources of information in the NAFO regulatory area. We enjoy quite a lot of cooperation, as just noted, with other countries.

But a key, I think, to the whole program is not just the application or the deployment of significant large capital resources, such as ships and planes and so on, and the use of vessel monitoring systems, but how you integrate it—forensic analysis. It's the use of those resources to get a sense of the picture, to be constantly forward-looking.

A violation is the result of the actions of one master, and a citation of the ability of inspectors to intercept at any particular time. But the use of the information in a broader way to integrate where they are fishing now with what the historical patterns are and what the seasonality component is, matching what an inspector sees at sea with where the vessel is actually fishing at various times, is very important to our ability to understand what we believe the catches to be and what we believe the situation currently is.

Specifically, I would like to note some of the post-reform results. We have seen a very significant reduction, as no doubt you have heard, in fishing activity in this area from the 2003 period onwards. There has actually been a 70% decline of fishing activity in the NAFO regulatory area in that timeframe, and approximately 50% more recently.

Some other measures, of course, pertain to bycatch and so on. We have had vessels called back to port since 2006, and on every occasion we have had an opportunity to participate in the inspection.

Thank you.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you very much, gentlemen.

Mr. Byrne.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Okay, Mr. Chair.

As fine a gentleman as Mr. Jenkins is and as Mr. Anderson is, and clearly they are, I don't think it likely that they're going to be able to comment very much on their preferences within the revised NAFO treaty. So I guess what we're really here to do is talk a little bit about enforcement and so on.

So let me ask a broad-based question. How's morale? When those 23 inspectors within the NAFO unit come across a vessel that is clearly not holding up its end of the bargain but is breaking the rules, and when things don't necessarily happen the way we all would want, does that affect morale within the inspection unit? How is the morale amongst the troops?