Evidence of meeting #16 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fishers.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gilbert Scantland  General Director, Conférence régionale des élu(e)s Gaspésie-Îles-de-la-Madeleine
Gaétan Cousineau  Coordinator, Mouvement Action-Chômage Pabok Inc.
Gérard-Raymond Blais  Representative, Municipalité régionale de comté de Bonaventure
Léo Lelièvre  Acting Reeve, Municipalité régionale de comté du Rocher Percé
Daniel Desbois  President, Association des crabiers gaspésiens inc.
Delphine Metallic  Assistant Director, Natural Resources, Listuguj Mi'gmaq Government
Ronald Hunt  Dockhand, As an Individual
Lorenzo Méthot  Secretary, Association des membres d'équipages des crabiers de la Gaspésie
Marc Diotte  Representative, Association des morutiers traditionnels de la Gaspésie
Mireille Langlois  Plant Workers Representative, Unipêche M.D.M. Ltée
Linda Delarosbil  Plant Workers Representative, Unipêche M.D.M. Ltée
O'neil Cloutier  Director, Regroupement des pêcheurs professionnels du sud de la Gaspésie

10:25 a.m.

President, Association des crabiers gaspésiens inc.

Daniel Desbois

The graphs show activity in the fisheries over the last two cycles. For example, traditional crabbers harvested almost 110,000 tons from 1999 to 2002, as well as from 2003 to 2009. However, during the second cycle, an additional 40,000 tons were harvested. We are accused of overfishing, but we are not the ones who harvested those 40,000 tons; it is the Department that made that decision in order to meet its own obligations. It should be managing the lobster fishery properly. There is no reason why crabbers or the crab resource should have to pay for the mistakes made in managing the lobster or groundfish fishery, but that is exactly what is happening now. The crab resource is paying for those mistakes. We are doing exactly the same thing in the case of crab.

Crab is a highly profitable resource which was very well managed until 2000, at which time the sharing began. Nobody asked for assistance at that point. In fact, it is only since 2003 that fishers have begun to ask for help, but we have reached the same point as everyone else. No one is able to earn a living from the fishery anymore. The Department is using the resource to meet its obligations because of poor management or ad hocery.

10:25 a.m.

Bloc

Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

You made reference to a study looking at costs. There again, I imagine you could provide us with those documents.

10:25 a.m.

General Director, Conférence régionale des élu(e)s Gaspésie-Îles-de-la-Madeleine

Gilbert Scantland

Yes, we will make that study available. There is a first section presenting an analysis of the governance chain, as well as a diagnosis. After that, we worked on the costs of the insecurity caused by the current management system. But it is not only the federal government that is targeted here; it is the structure as a whole. So, we will be releasing this document to the public in a few weeks, and we will forward it to you.

10:30 a.m.

Bloc

Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Mr. Cousineau, regarding employment insurance, we know that there are solutions—for example, the number of hours required to qualify for EI could be lowered; the system could be enhanced.

Could you tell us more about the type of measures that are needed to deal with these kinds of situations? This is not necessarily the first time, nor will it be the last time, unfortunately, but it is clear that if the employment insurance system were geared more to specific needs, there would automatically be less of an impact.

10:30 a.m.

Coordinator, Mouvement Action-Chômage Pabok Inc.

Gaétan Cousineau

Raynald, I am sure you remember that starting in about 1990, the Employment Insurance program began to be cut back. The Employment Insurance fund began to record a surplus around 1994. The surplus went as high as $55 billion. At that point, the money started to be rolled into the government's Consolidated Revenue Fund and was used for all kinds of other things.

At the same time, access to Employment Insurance started to become a lot more difficult. We went from weeks to hours. Penalties are now much tougher. An offence that previously resulted in a three-week penalty now leads to total disqualification. Obviously, in regions where employment sources are extremely limited and where there is no major industry generating jobs all year long, gaining access to employment insurance is nothing short of heroic, if I can put it that way. The fact is that for several years now, only about 45% of the people contributing to employment insurance can access benefits, whereas between 85% and 90% of contributors had access in the 1990s. It is becoming increasingly difficult. Our demands over time have been aimed at bringing down the number of hours required to qualify, obviously. Everything we are hearing this morning clearly indicates just how difficult it is to compensate for lost income in the industry.

The government has an obligation to balance regional economies and support people throughout the regions, rather than forcing them to leave home to earn a decent income, so they can feed their families. Stakeholders are all asking for the same thing with respect to employment insurance: a reduction in the number of hours, and extended benefit periods so that people can cover the complete cycle when there is no work in the region.

Of course, if the unemployment rate is around 8% or 10%, there is a greater possibility of finding work. But here, where the unemployment rate has always hovered between 17% and 21%, there clearly are very few opportunities to find work outside of the tourist season, which has become very short. That is the reason why we have consistently been asking that the Employment Insurance Act be adjusted.

It is not a question of money. There is plenty of money in the Employment Insurance Fund. Every year it generates a surplus of $3 or $4 billion. Our demands could easily be met with the money currently being paid into the fund through contributions by both employers and employees.

10:30 a.m.

Bloc

Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Thank you.

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Merci.

Mr. Donnelly.

10:30 a.m.

NDP

Fin Donnelly NDP New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm very pleased to be here in this region. I would just like to add that I am from the west coast so it's especially important for me to be here to hear your concerns, to hear what you have to say. I'm also a new member of Parliament. I was elected in November last year.

But when I first heard of the snow crab issue, I thought that it was very important that this committee come to the region, listen to the concerns, and see if we can make some recommendations. I would really encourage you to submit your recommendations and your solutions. If you feel there hasn't been enough time at this committee--unfortunately, we need to have limited presentation times, etc.--I would encourage you to submit them in writing and get that to us, as Monsieur Blais has mentioned. We can follow up.

My first question is for you, Mr. Scantland. You talked about insecurity and the current management. You talked about the need for better planning, and about late announcements, especially with bad news. You emphasized no consultation or limited consultation, especially with regard to involving the community, and I'm wondering if you could elaborate more and talk a little bit more about what kind of model or management model you envision that would address these issues.

10:35 a.m.

General Director, Conférence régionale des élu(e)s Gaspésie-Îles-de-la-Madeleine

Gilbert Scantland

It is always difficult to comment on that sort of thing. At the same time, I do think there are a couple of starting points. There are a few basics that must be considered before we can develop a model of governance that would really reflect the realities in the different areas.

My description of the way Fisheries and Oceans Canada manages the resource here would be that the decision-making process is relatively centralized, based on data provided by biologists. It is important to have that information. What is debatable is the way that information is made available and the way in which decisions are made, on behalf of communities or groups, as to the way of managing that resource. Elsewhere in the world, and even elsewhere in Canada, there are other ways of managing the fisheries that involve the communities in the decision-making and allow them to develop solutions based on the expected status of the resource.

As regards crab in particular, we know that there is a cycle—and Mr. Desbois made some very intelligent comments on that earlier—a cycle which is predictable. Therefore, why would it not be possible to manage the fishery based on five-year plans providing for five-year quotas? What would the impact of that be? The impact would ultimately be negligible, and adjustments could made over time. Why this vagueness, year after year?

I would like to draw a parallel to the forest industry. When you know what the status of the resource is and how much you will be harvesting over a certain number of years, you are in a better position to make adjustments subsequently in terms of developing the plants or new products and working with fishers, so that landings can be spread over a longer period of time. There are no constraints.

So, there are all kinds of ways of adjusting to what is happening in the plants, and to the realities facing the fishers and our communities. But if we do not have the right to give our opinion on resource management, other than through fleeting consultations, then we are clearly going to end up, year after year, in the same kind of situation we are facing today. That is what happened with the groundfish and shrimp fisheries. In the spring, when February and March roll around, we start to wonder whether it will be a warm or cold spring. A warm spring means there will be demonstrations, problems between the plants, problems with the fishers and problems with the workers.

Not one year goes by without another crisis. How can organizations such as ours be expected to influence development and find long-term solutions when we are systematically put in the position we find ourselves in now?

10:35 a.m.

NDP

Fin Donnelly NDP New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC

Merci.

Monsieur Desbois, if you---

Oh, I'm out of time.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Merci.

Mr. Allen.

May 25th, 2010 / 10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am very pleased to be here.

I want to thank you and all the fishers for being here today. Thank you and welcome.

I have a few questions this morning.

Mr. Desbois, are there places in the region where processing is occurring? And how many are we talking about?

10:35 a.m.

President, Association des crabiers gaspésiens inc.

Daniel Desbois

There are two in the Gaspé region and two more, in the Magdalen Islands.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

I am from western New Brunswick. There are a lot of potato producers in my riding, but not many crab fishers.

I want to read something into the record here this morning. It highlights a problem.

This was a report done for the provincial government in New Brunswick, and it's en anglais. In it, there is a comment that was made that says a lot about the industry and one of the challenges. This comment is from GTA Fisheries Consultants. I'm not sure if anybody's aware of that, but it says:

For some species, like snow crab, the status of their biomass and the quantity that can be fished from one year to the next (without compromising it) are cyclical in nature. These cycles represent a challenge, because the total allowable catch...can vary by 50% or more, depending on whether it is the upside or the downside of the cycle. When the total allowable catch is rising, there is enormous pressure to make way for more fishers. Conversely, when the cycle is falling, there are often too many fishers and so there is pressure to reduce the number of stakeholders.

I think that's what happens every year in the spring when this is all decided.

I imagine the question is whether there is a better way of setting the TAC year over year, compared to the current system.

10:40 a.m.

President, Association des crabiers gaspésiens inc.

Daniel Desbois

The issue is not only the TAC. We went through this in 1989-1990. The resource was jeopardized in 1989-1990 with 130 fishers. In cooperation with the Department's scientists, fishers reinvested in research. Thus we were able to rapidly increase the resource. It was far more abundant than it had ever been before, but the fishers did not reap the benefits. As soon as the resource became available, it was shared.

We invested in the fisheries, we behaved responsibly and then we ended up paying for having done that. The Department used the resource to meet its own obligations. If it managed the groundfish resource badly or if actions of that kind have meant that there is less available, that does not mean that others should have to deal with it. It is fine to set quotas, but if there is not enough to go around, then that is all there is.

As Mr. Scantland was saying, we go through the same thing every year. Harvesting plans are announced at the last minute, the last second. It might be a better idea to plan over a two- or three-year period. In any case, if there is not enough of the resource to go around, we will still be facing the same problem.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Madame Metallic, you talked about a decision being made on a percentage basis as opposed to a fixed basis. Are you on a percentage basis now?

10:40 a.m.

Assistant Director, Natural Resources, Listuguj Mi'gmaq Government

Delphine Metallic

Yes, we are.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

You started 10 years ago. What has been the impact of the percentage? We've had some high-catch years. What is the difference in the percentage that you've been able to take as opposed to if you were on a fixed basis?

10:40 a.m.

Assistant Director, Natural Resources, Listuguj Mi'gmaq Government

Delphine Metallic

When Listuguj entered the fishery, it was on a fixed quota. Year after year we'd get agreements. The band officials negotiated with the government. They moved to maybe 550 metric tonnes, and then discussions were made to move first nations—Listuguj in particular, and I think other first nations as well, although I can't be certain—to a percentage. It increased dramatically, almost twofold. From there, once it increased, the TAC began to fall and to fall, to where we are today. Listuguj has 295 metric tonnes for the community.

So we question how the discussions went, what data was given to the band, how the decisions came to be, and why part of the quota wasn't protected with a fixed amount. Because it's an inherent right, and the industry is subject to fluctuations in the market.

We're consulted, but for Mi'gmaq, it's not perhaps appropriate consultation. There could be more consultation involved. The fishery is communal and every member of the community is a stakeholder. It's not just one person; it's not just the band council. All the members of the community own part of this quota.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Do you know what the difference is since you started and what you received over that period of time that would have been on a fixed basis as opposed to a percentage? Is it higher under the percentage?

10:45 a.m.

Assistant Director, Natural Resources, Listuguj Mi'gmaq Government

Delphine Metallic

It was higher at the time they moved into percentage, but with the drop, it's lower than where we started.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Okay, but over the 10-year period, is the overall catch lower?

10:45 a.m.

Assistant Director, Natural Resources, Listuguj Mi'gmaq Government

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Okay.

I would like to address a question now to representatives of the communities. How many people are currently working in the processing industry in the Gaspé region?

10:45 a.m.

Acting Reeve, Municipalité régionale de comté du Rocher Percé

Léo Lelièvre

About 800 people?