Fisheries Committee on May 27th, 2010

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good day, gentlemen. There are two or three points I would like to discuss with you.

The Fisheries Resource Conservation Council, the FRCC, did a review of the snow crab industry in 2005. You were probably made aware of all of that. The FRCC recommended in particular “that an independent, third party, apolitical structure be established to hold public hearings and make public recommendations on access and allocation issues”. The FRCC also recommended that “a framework for co-management including provisions for participatory decision-making by stakeholders, an open-transparent process, and dispute settlement mechanisms be developed and published”.

This year's catastrophe in zone 12 has had some very serious impacts. That is the criticism I want to make, that we make and that we will probably make together, I expect: since it is the Department of Fisheries and Oceans' responsibility to establish quotas, it should also have an attendant responsibility so as to be able to attenuate impacts.

This formula was proposed in 2005 and I imagine that there are others. You may have one as well. It could eventually enable us to avoid catastrophic situations like the one we saw this year. Sudden 63% cuts indicate that something is wrong. It is as though what we were told in previous years was negated. We know that insofar as the snow crab is concerned, there is a multi-year cycle. So things can be foreseen. So, either people didn't want to see what was coming, or chose to set the facts aside.

The creation of such a committee, which could conceivably be the FRCC, or some other organization, would allow us to prevent catastrophic situations like the one we saw this year. Do you have any comments to make on that?

[Greg Roach]

I mentioned earlier on the issue of allocation disputes that our minister has put forward the concept of some kind of board or panel to hear issues when there are serious conflicts. In the case of routine management, I don't think you would need such a panel year after year. I think the best way is to have co-management plans that are developed with the industry and DFO. Those are the best approaches, and that's pretty much what we have in area 19.

On the dramatic change in the recommendation in area 12, I mentioned already that I wasn't at the RAP meeting this year. Each year there's somewhat of a change in the number of scientists who are there. I suspect that this year the scientists who sat around the table saw the declining stock and decided they had to recommend a dramatic reduction in the harvest percentage. I'm willing to bet there wasn't consensus on that, but by the end of the day there was a recommendation that came out, and as was mentioned, it's pretty hard to go against a scientific recommendation.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

According to my information, the scientific advice was available in 2009, and perhaps even in 2008, and its objective was to reduce quotas. But quotas were not reduced at that time.

[Greg Roach]

It's my understanding that the decline in the biomass was being observed. It was going to go in a downward cycle. It gets back a bit to the whole idea of industry flexibility. If the industry decides to take them now because they're not going to be there in two years' time and it's really not going to make a difference at a stock level, then it's more of an economic decision of those who benefit or don't from the resource. I think some of the decisions were leaning more towards that principle—and this is my opinion—in 2008–2009; then in 2010 the scientific statements were far stronger and more inflexible, and that led to the decisions.

Going back to the earlier discussion I had with Mr. Byrne, I would have been interested in having that scientific discussion in 2010. Is there a real, scientific, biological reason to say we have to put the screws on it this year or we'll be in big trouble? It's like trying to debate motherhood, but I would have engaged in that debate.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Are you worried about what is happening in the Gulf of Mexico, just as people may be worried in the Magdalen Islands or in the Gaspé, in the Gulf of St. Lawrence? This oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico following the problems with the drilling rig is a catastrophic situation. There are several questions we could ask ourselves with regard to what could happen in the Gulf of St. Lawrence.

[Greg Roach]

Excuse me, are you talking about a connection with that spill now, or that something similar could happen in the Gulf of St. Lawrence?

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Something similar could happen here. Indeed, there have been other catastrophes. I am thinking of the Irving Whale which caused some problems off of the Magdalen Islands. There could be other, subsequent catastrophes in relation to this type of rig, other catastrophes we thought were avoidable but which may in fact be unavoidable. This could have an impact on the snow crab and on other resources.

Have you ever examined this? Have you ever expressed any concerns in regard to this? Has an emergency plan been prepared, and so forth?

[Greg Roach]

I guess I am way beyond my expertise on this one, but I have discussed some of the concerns involved with some folks, and I've been watching this very closely, as all of us have in Canada. I guess some good news, if there is any good news, is that some of the major currents in the Gulf of Mexico change over time, but the pattern that exists today is that there is a bit of a gyre in the northern part of the Gulf of Mexico. So that oil is actually staying in a bit of a circle at present. Now, that could change over time, and it could exit the Gulf of Mexico. For now, there are no signals that it is going to exit and get into the Gulf Stream.

I would be more concerned about our tuna fisheries. One of the major reproductive areas for bluefin is the Gulf of Mexico. Outside of that, if the oil does get into the Gulf Stream, then I would be worried about some of the migratory fishes like mackerel, for example, and the other tunas and swordfish.

As far as the Gulf of St. Lawrence is concerned, there's a reason we have ice up there. I don't think too much of the Gulf Stream gets up there. It crosses the Atlantic; it goes across Nova Scotia quite a bit offshore. So I'm not sure if the Gulf of St. Lawrence crab fishery will be impacted by that; but again, I am way, way beyond what I would be able to speculate about.

My concerns are with the bluefin tuna, mackerel, and swordfish, if the oil exits and ends up hitting the Gulf Stream.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you.

Mr. Donnelly.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think Mr. Roach touched on one of the questions I had about the number of licences and whether those were over-subscribed. He answered that one.

I have a few other questions, and I'm just wondering if you could comment on the following. You mentioned the tribunal, and I am wondering if you think there is a role the federal government can play in terms being involved with that.

[Greg Roach]

Yes, Minister Belliveau made that recommendation to DFO on a couple of occasions. The idea is to have such a mechanism, if there is to be a new fisheries act. So if a new fisheries act is coming soon and will be in place soon, then it's going to be addressed. But as I mentioned earlier, if that's not a reality, then maybe it should be addressed in its own right.

And again, we'd have to have a situation where everyone who doesn't like the decision doesn't run to the tribunal. The tribunal has to be there for some of the bigger issues, and there have been some with snow crab, for sure, and some with scallop.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

For my second question, do you think the department is putting enough money, funds, or resources into research and science?

[Greg Roach]

I am assuming you mean DFO. Again, that's a tough one to answer. You will never really be able to do everything that needs to be done; it's a balancing act. I've always been a proponent of as much field research as possible, and that we apply the federal DFO dollars to hands-on research out there. The snow crab trawl survey is an example of that: you are actually out there taking real measurements on the real bottom and working with the industry on that. The industry has been very cooperative on the snow crab science, even to the point of funding many of the trawl surveys. For that spring survey in area 19 that I talked about, the fishermen said they'll pay for it, pay the whole thing. So that's a pretty strong incentive and shows how important it is for that sector to get accurate information.

So the answer is that there is never enough, but this is the real world. I have budgets in my own department, and you can only deal with what you have.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

And just to comment on the spring survey, I've certainly sent a letter to the minister on that point. Certainly there are a number of us who recognize the importance of that.

[Greg Roach]

I believe even the science folks are pretty supportive. We're really concerned that this concept of not giving any special deals might be a factor in the decision. And as everyone knows, there is a lot of turmoil and there are a lot of unhappy campers in area 12 right now. That situation should not dictate how things are managed in area 19.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

In the remaining time--I have less than five minutes--would you be able to summarize what you would consider to be the key challenges and the key recommendations when it comes to snow crab? Could you do that in a minute or two?

[Greg Roach]

One of the challenges would be the allocation disputes. It would be a good thing if we could move past those--in area 12, for example, or in areas 23 and 24--and have all the harvesting sector working together for their interests.

Another challenge is the harvester-dealer distrust. We should try to have the two sectors work as partners in a global industry, because oftentimes we find ourselves, in Atlantic Canada, as price-takers. We don't work collectively to manage the timing of landing, the quality, and the marketing of the crab and other species. So the people who want our products globally would then have to compete a little more for them, instead of just saying “Here's what you get, take it or leave it”, and then the low price falls all the way down the line.

Another challenge we have is this balance of exploitation rate. It should be done based on sound resource management principles, and not based on fear or motherhood issues. You know, the science says be really conservative and have a precautionary approach, when the whole fishery may have a built-in precautionary approach, a built-in perfect set-up for resource harvesting.

We need to expand our markets. The U.S. dollar is killing us in all our fisheries. See if China wants to eat snow crab. I can't see why they wouldn't. It's a great product, and there are a lot of people getting a lot of money in China now who like shellfish and western food.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you.

Ms. O'Neill-Gordon.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Roach, for being with us this afternoon.

First of all, I have to say I am from Miramichi, New Brunswick, and we certainly have lots of fishing communities. I am formerly from the fishing community of Escuminac, so I do have a little bit of knowledge, but I still have lots more to learn.

Most of my questions have already been asked along the way by my colleagues, but I do have one left. I'm wondering how closely you work with your DFO counterparts.

[Greg Roach]

I work, I believe, quite closely with them. My background is in invertebrate science, so earlier in my career I was doing more fisheries management and fisheries research work, and I worked very closely with the scientists in the gulf region on snow crab and lobster, as well as in the Scotia-Fundy region. I participated, as I mentioned, in CAFSAC and I participate now in the RAP sessions.

I also work very closely with fisheries managers. In my role now as associate deputy minister, I still work with the rank and file, and I really appreciate doing it. And I work closely with intergovernmental affairs and the folks at DFO, with the regional directors, and the regional directors general, and with those throughout the ranks. So I do still work very closely with DFO, and for the most part it's positive.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Thank you.

I'll pass it on. Randy, did you have anything?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Mr. Kamp.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Roach. It's good to see you again. We always get clear testimony from you, and we appreciate that, although I'm having a little trouble getting that pornographic crab video out of my mind.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Are you in competition or in cooperation with the American fisheries industry, especially crab?