Fisheries Committee on Nov. 15th, 2010

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

So that timeframe is the key concern, and the need to have some immediate action.

[Michelle Young]

Relief--yes.

[Catherine Stewart]

On the coordinated approach in the Broughton Archipelago, I want to note that only one company is taking the approach of fallowing farms during the out-migration and treating the fish proactively. We've had a monitoring plan in place this past year that involves the other two companies and DFO, as well as the Coastal Alliance for Aquaculture Reform and Marine Harvest.

So there's some coordinated monitoring going on, but there certainly isn't an area-based coordinated management approach. One company is taking some voluntary measures on an interim basis.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Raynald Blais]

Thank you very much, Ms. Murray.

Just before giving the floor to Mr. Donnelly I might have a few questions to put myself, first of all to Ms. Michelle Young.

You will let me know if I am mistaken or not. I feel from your comments that confidence in the aquacultural industry in general has declined, that there is a difference in perspective. Everything is not black and white. One may consider that there are grey areas as well.

Personally, I feel a certain confidence in small businesses. I wonder if they make you feel more secure. Do you see that as a positive approach? When the aquacultural industry gets bigger, the risks grow as well. There are smaller businesses like the one we visited this morning, where these 25 people work, and conditions may be completely different from one business to the next. Would you be more inclined to see a much more human-scale industry in a positive light, as opposed to a much more broad-scale industry?

[Michelle Young]

I guess my concern is with transparency and the availability of data to the general public, and especially to the researchers. They need to have that information as quickly as possible so they can compare the scientific data from farms to what's happening to the wild fish. I'm not particularly concerned about who owns the companies if they're operating responsibly, but if smaller scale means fewer farms in the water, that would be better than having more farms.

Did that answer your question?

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Raynald Blais]

So that is your answer. I cannot qualify it. I asked you if you felt more secure when the aquacultural industry was made up for the most part of small businesses rather than large ones.

That is my viewpoint.

[Michelle Young]

I'm not sure I can answer that. It would depend on the individual companies and their personal operations, and how they conducted their business.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Raynald Blais]

Thank you.

I have a question for Mr. Sewid.

You will tell me if I am mistaken. We were talking about confidence earlier. You referred among other things to a possible reduction in the Department of Fisheries and Oceans' budget, and in its work properly speaking. We know what is coming in the area of aquaculture here: this department will be taking up the reins and managing this whole sector.

Are you uncomfortable with that, very worried, or do you think that in the final analysis it will be possible to do good work with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans?

[Tom Sewid]

I'm very comfortable with DFO taking over and looking after the aquaculture industry. My father is a retired DFO biological technician. I grew up in a household where we lived and breathed DFO policy, and the pros and cons of it. It's going to be good that DFO is going to be taking over. They're definitely going to need an increase in their budget, as well as policy changes from Ottawa.

Back in 1990 to 1993, when I was the vice-president of Kwakiutl Territorial Fisheries Commission, we worked diligently with DFO to get the AFS together for the Kwakwaka’wakw nation. At that time, it was made up of 18 recognized bands. We wanted our guardians to get training to be certified and recognized as enforcement officers. They got their pistol training, but they weren't allowed to bear arms and they weren't allowed to carry them. Still to this day, native guardians in Canada are not allowed to be recognized custodians of the fish--protecting that resource. That's one of the biggest things holding us back, as far as first nations, as well as looking after this resource. That needs to be changed and addressed. I've been following AFS steadily--trust me.

I was asked as a commercial captain on the seine boat...and this really affected me when the salmon stocks went down. I asked them, in 1991, at that last commission, whether the Stó:lo, the Tsawwassen, the Musqueum, and the Yale do like other aboriginals, at least like the Kwakwaka’wakw, and go to the rivers we rely upon in our traditional territories to enhance those spawning grounds, the nurseries. Do those people from the mouth of the Fraser River look after the rivers, the spawning grounds on the Horsefly, Quesnel, the Adams? Someone from one of the bands got up and said no, we don't; it's not our traditional territory.

Yet you guys want to get access to commercial selling food fish, which is against federal law. We as Kwakwaka’wakw can't do it, but we have heavy investment in commercial fisheries, gill netting, seining, and trolling. We've spent millions to be participants in this industry, yet you guys want to go out with little aluminum duck punts with 300-foot nets and be commercial fishermen. If you want to be a commercial fisherman, invest in the industry as we have. AFS came, and we have to accept it.

Where are all the boats at the docks in Campbell River, Powell River, Prince Rupert, Bella Bella, Klemtu? I know all those ports by heart because of the downsizing in the industry. We downsized it: let's accept it. But we still have the majority of the fishers as aboriginals.

We hear stories about people in the oil patch--Fort McMurray and elsewhere--paying up to $60 for a sockeye sold out of the back of a truck. I flew over the Fraser River six years ago, and like the Indian on the commercial back in the 1970s who had a tear coming down his cheek, that's what I felt when I saw the number of gill nets in the Fraser River. And yet it was a day that wasn't open for food fishing.

The main thing is enforcement. The government has to give DFO a big budget so it can work properly. One of the best ways DFO can work properly is enforcement, and that's enforcement spinning down to the aboriginal guardians.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Raynald Blais]

Thank you very much.

I am now going to yield the floor to Fin.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Connors, you mentioned sea lice transfers. You talked about sea lice transfers from pinks to coho, I believe, and you used the term “intensification”. I'm just wondering if this is a localized problem or if this is a significant problem to the population. Could you put it into perspective for me?

Also, I'm wondering if you've shared these results with DFO, with industry, and what the reaction has been to those results or that sharing.

[Brendan Connors]

Okay. I'll start with the first part, which is whether or not it's a localized phenomenon.

To be clear, this work has been done in the Broughton and very much pertains to when one salmonid species feeds on another. So I would say that anywhere coho or another salmonid species is feeding on another--pink or chum or anything else that's infected by lice--this is very likely to occur. For example, in the Strait of Georgia, where we have only odd-year lineages of pinks, we may not expect this phenomenon to occur during those years when pinks don't make up a large prey base for those coho. But it's certainly not something that I would say is just localized to a small part of the Broughton Archipelago.

When it comes to the second question, which was whether or not this information has been shared with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and the public in general, it was just recently published. There were two manuscripts published. One was in collaboration with two DFO employees. That looked at the accumulation of lice on coho in the Broughton, and then the population level consequences were also done with some other academics as well as a DFO employee on the east coast. All that's been published and just released online earlier last month. We didn't go out of our way to create a media situation about it. We felt that the best way to proceed was to allow this work to work its way through the system and to help it inform decisions down the road.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Okay. Have you had any reaction?

[Brendan Connors]

Yes, the usual, what you'd expect. On the far left, all the way on one side, people say this is evidence that all coho salmon are doomed everywhere where there are salmon farms. And on the other side, they say it's completely flawed methodology and it's junk science. We've had a little of everything in between.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Okay, thank you.

Mr. Sewid, my understanding, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, is that there currently is a moratorium on fish farm expansion. In other words, you can't get new licences in this province and it's basically either for environmental problems or perceived environmental problems. And I'm wondering if you could see a day, if that changed, if for instance there was a shift to closed containment, when the industry could in fact expand.

[Tom Sewid]

Expand it. I'm not a believer in the sea lice epidemic. I believe, as Hitler found out, if you get a good propaganda minister to jump loud enough and for a long enough time, they'll believe anything.

I lived in the Broughton Archipelago for 16 years, in Meem Quam Leese, and I harvested my clams, my halibut, my sole, my crab, and my shrimp all around fish farms. As you can see by my waistline, ain't nothing wrong with this boy. I'm healthy. I challenged Alexandra Morton to come and take some blood tests from me and see what kinds of antibiotics and other toxins are in my blood system, but she hasn't taken the challenge on yet.

We need an expansion, socio-economic strength for the first nations. I worked in the Englewood fish plant in 1997. I drove a friend there for a job interview. The guy who was running it happened to be the manager from the seine fishing plant up in Prince Rupert. “Tommy, come run my forklifts”. So I dragged my butt over there and I started running forklifts. I was tasked to go to Alert Bay to get first nations into the fish plant. I told my cousins, “There ain't going to be a fishing industry, get over there and work”. They came. All of a sudden this propaganda machine started about a sea lice epidemic from Alexandra Morton and I heard about the kids getting beat up in school because their daddy worked for the fish farm industry. And that's still taking place.

I watched people used as token Indians walk down the highway to Parliament and paint graffiti on one of our most sacred aboriginal symbols in this community, Big Rock. How dare they go paint their salmon logo on there, or anyone paint anything on there?

Well, I heard last week that Kingcome's up in arms. They're mad. Who's going to pay the $15,000 for housing and feeding all their band members who went on this migration walk? Propaganda. Token Indians.

I see the unemployment. I see my cousins who are prospering because they work in the fish farm industry. I see them also having the ability to be commercial fishermen, because they retained their vessels. Three-quarters of the boats in this harbour down here that are seine boats, that are owned by aboriginals, were retained because of the fish farm industry. So expansion--expand it. Come talk to the chiefs, the real chiefs, not your token little Indians. Bobby Chamberlain--Chamberlain ain't even a Kwakwaka'wakw last name. I think that comes from Germany. Talk to the true Kwakwaka'wakw chiefs, the ones who are true leaders and controllers of what happens within their traditional territories, and I think you're going to find that the consensus is “Yes, I would like to work with government to expand these farms. I need to see my people working.”

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Raynald Blais]

Thank you very much.

I will now give the floor to Randy.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for coming. I appreciate your input on this important issue.

Let me begin with Mr. Kingwell, if I may. First of all, let me say that I appreciate the work of the Powell River Salmon Society. It does good work and makes a big contribution to the health and sustainability of salmon.

I do have a question for you, but you seem concerned about the continued split jurisdiction, I think you called it. I don't know that's a problem we can solve, because the sea floor is still under provincial jurisdiction. So the siting, anything that attaches to the sea floor, as the net cages do, will fall under provincial jurisdiction. However, in order to get a licence, they still have to go through DFO authorizations, and that triggers environmental assessments as well as, usually, a navigable waters permit, which is another hoop they have to jump through. But I think there's certainly going to be more coordination with the federal government actually managing the aquaculture industry, so it will be interesting to see on December 19 how all that works.

You made a comment earlier about DFO's lack of ownership. I wasn't quite sure what you were referring to there, and I wonder if you could expand on that.

[Hugh Kingwell]

From my perspective and from the different forums I've been involved in, when aquaculture blew up to be a very politically sensitive issue, it very clearly seemed advantageous for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans to acknowledge that it was a provincial issue.

Then we got to a point in time when it was clear that ownership of aquaculture was going to shift back to the jurisdictional control of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. Throughout that window of time and even through the window of transition that we're going through now, when the department was asked for formal advice or positions on aquaculture, it was initially deferred to the province.

I appreciate that the department is doing a lot of work and investing a lot of resources in trying to set up the regulatory process and all the administrative measures necessary to administer aquaculture really from scratch. Still, the sense we've been getting is one of “We'll talk to you when we're done”, so we're still not getting a lot of information on the issues that are pertinent to the day.

In December, when that is up and running, hopefully that process will change and they'll be a little more transparent in the information flow, and I'm hoping that things such as better-balanced reviews of current science and past science, which tend to get bandied around and used and misused, will get a little better forum.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Were you involved at all in the consultation process as DFO was working at producing these new regulations that we'll see shortly? I know there were large public meetings; perhaps some others were involved in them, but were you personally involved in any of them?

[Hugh Kingwell]

I didn't have an opportunity. Powell River is a difficult place to get from, so I didn't personally have an opportunity. Other people I know who are involved in other associations did have a chance to get involved, but we've yet to see what the final product will look like relative to the input that was given.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Yes, that's a good comment.

Mr. Connors, I'm interested in the methodology you used when you tested the coho, but I don't have time to go there, because I want to leave some time for my colleague.

As a biologist, what's your best guess at the good sockeye returns this year?

[Brendan Connors]

I'm definitely not qualified to answer that question, but since you asked for my opinion, I'll give you my opinion.

There are a suite of survival filters for any salmonid. I'm sure you've probably taken a look at the document that was done for the Pacific Salmon Commission this past summer, the summary of the weight of evidence for the mostly downward trend in productivity in the Fraser stocks. I think they identified a number of very likely survival filters, including disease, either natural or from anthropogenic activities; competition in the open ocean; competition in the watershed; and, very much, the marine environment.

While we had a perfect storm in 2009, I think everything hit “all systems go” in 2010.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Good. Thank you for that.

Before I pass it over to Mr. Weston, I'm surprised that our vice-chair hasn't mentioned this item on that theme. In April of this year, the headline on an article by Mark Hume in The Globe and Mail is, “Seals, sea lions devastating west coast salmon runs”. Maybe that's another factor in this whole thing.

I'll pass it over to Mr. Weston.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Preston Manning wrote an interesting article that was published about six weeks ago and he said that in politics, Canadians are getting increasingly disconcerted because it's a polarized world and the credibility of each side of a discussion withers and there's nobody left to believe.

In this debate, most of us are way less qualified than you to form an opinion on these things, because we're not scientists as you are. Yet we're hearing things like Sonja Saksida, executive director for the B.C. Centre for Aquatic Health Sciences, who said just a couple of hours ago, “veterinarians and professionals manage fish health well in farmed salmon, and B.C. does not see the same incidence of sea lice here“. Brendan, you would say something very different, and certainly Michelle and Catherine would have a different perspective. Then from Tom we hear something radically different.

If I put you into a room, Brendan or Catherine, and argued the other side of the story, that really we don't have a problem, or, Tom, if I had to get you to understand the sincere passion that Catherine is exuding here, how would you answer, and how can we get to a stage where we have some sort of common ground we can move forward from? From our hearings we're going to have to make some recommendations, and I hope someone listens and maybe we can move forward and become the best producer of wild salmon and farmed salmon in the world. That's got to be the goal. How do we get you to hear one another so there's credibility on both sides and we can move forward? I don't know if you can answer that.

Catherine, go for it.