Evidence of meeting #6 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 40th Parliament, 3rd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Director General, Fisheries Renewal, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I'll answer that in two pieces.
The lobster fishery, as you may be aware, has created a lobster council to represent it in terms of market access and marketing. They're currently developing their marketing strategy. Eco-labelling is part of the discussions. I would expect them to come to a decision at some point in the future on whether or not they go down this route.
I sit on the lobster council as a--
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
Now, when you sit there--not to interrupt you--on that council, is there any choice? Is there any choice in not being involved? If you don't have eco-certification...and looking at somebody deciding that fish comes from a certain area. Or bluefin tuna; that goes....
We've dealt here at this committee with the green, yellow, and red categories. It certainly scares me; particularly when you hit the red category, you're done, as far as marketing a product.
Director General, Fisheries Renewal, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I don't know if this particular red list or these kinds of wallet card lists are having specific impacts on consumer decisions. The best people to ask are those in the industry. I'm sure they've looked at this and have probably assessed it.
But you are right that those in the industry hardly have a choice in looking at the whole issue of sustainability if they want to continue selling their products. DFO has been giving them that message over and again for the last couple of years, connecting them to the realities of the market demands.
We're not promoting one or another; they just need to be aware of the fact that markets are demanding proof of sustainability. They are also increasingly aware of these particular campaigns and information out there about their seafood products.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
So what you're telling me, though, is that it's not DFO that's going to decide the sustainability of the fishery; it's a third party. It's some group or organization--MSC or whatever--that's going to decide whether it's a sustainable fishery or not, and if it's not, it does not have a label.
Can there be extra dollars involved in getting certification? With that, why shouldn't the government create the guidelines?
Director General, Fisheries Renewal, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
That is a choice that can be made and has been made in other countries. Iceland as a country, pursued by the industry, has decided not to adopt MSC or another third party eco-label. They're in the process of creating their own.
At the end of the day, though, this is a market demand. It's what the markets are asking for. My experience to date is that the markets are asking for third party assessments. They want to hear from somebody who's independent from the industry and from governments. That is exactly the reason why the department did not follow the route of setting its standards.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
My concern is that when it's independent from the government, it just removes any power from the people in the industry to make the choice. I don't know for sure what the lobster industry would look for in my area, but I would be somewhat concerned, looking at this, that somebody else is going to decide whether or not--
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
Imagine: you talk about the kettle calling the pot black.
Anyhow, I guess I'm done.
Bloc
Yvon Lévesque Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair, Ms. Bouffard.
I am not an expert. However, you certainly have a lot of scientists in the Department, because there are a lot of organizations that can set standards and so on. I'm wondering, and I think that Lawrence is really thinking along the same lines as me, how much power the Department has over those organizations. Do we not risk, at some point, having the same thing happen, as in the mad cow crisis in the beef industry, for example, and having the country's reputation suffer, if we rely on third parties, as you said?
Director General, Fisheries Renewal, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I don't think the Department or the Government of Canada is losing power. In fact, the Department has approached some of these organizations to get a better understanding of the standards and to try to influence the development of the standards. In aquaculture, for example, the Department works very closely with organizations like the WWF and others. They are developing a standard. We were involved in developing the FAO's ecological standard that has been used by MSC. We were involved in developing MSC's performance indicators, to try to make sure that what they developed was consistent with or at least met Canadian standards.
We have Canadian standards for fishery sustainability. We have a fisheries management program in Canada. We have fisheries management policies; it is our standard. So we have been involved in developing all those organizations' standards, at least the ones mainly used in Canada, to try to ensure that they are consistent with the Canadian approach to fisheries management.
That being said, it does have to be recognized that these are independent organizations and they are recognized by the international markets, and that is what the markets recognize. It is outside the government's control and it is what the international markets are looking for.
Bloc
Yvon Lévesque Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
I understand it up to a certain point, as it was said at one time that western beef was just about the best steak to be found on the market. And all of a sudden we had mad cow disease and we lost our reputation for quite a while.
I am wondering whether the government, or the Department, at least, should not make sure that it has some authority over the various organizations that want to produce standards and seals of approval. There has to be some regular oversight and some authority could be exhibited by the Department, or in agreement with the provinces. Because we know that the country, Canada, is a virtually ungovernable country, that there are different standards all across Canada. It might be applied completely differently. For example, for Pacific salmon, Atlantic salmon or salmon in the Matapedia River, there are different standards. I think the Department should have some control, because Prince Edward Island is now coming to catch salmon in the lower St. Lawrence. It has to be controlled.
Director General, Fisheries Renewal, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
There are a number of possible responses to your comments.
The first is that the reputation of Canadian products is strengthened by the fact that a number of Canadian companies are currently taking part in the MSC process, which seems to be the most stringent, and so the assessments are more detailed, and they are making it through successfully. I think it's a good sign that these companies and the fisheries to which the assessments relate are sustainable. It's a good sign and it consolidates our reputation as a good steward.
In terms of control, there are various ways of getting it. Canada has approached the FAO to develop guidelines. What we have to look for, and what I often suggest to the industry when it is trying to decide what option to choose, are FAO guidelines. That is what the international community has established as the gold standard for these assessments. I also suggest that they do comparative assessments, there have been some published recently. I suggest that they read them to determine which are the strongest.
NDP
Fin Donnelly NDP New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I will just pick up on the comment about Iceland and that they're going down a certain path. If Canada was to decide, for instance, to go down a similar path of creating its own standard certification process or of just creating a standard, and there are other countries that have, let's say, gone along with a certain standard--let's call it a high standard--how do we as a country deal with other fisheries that have not gone to that same standard? They have accepted, essentially, a lower standard and now we're competing with these other fisheries--sometimes similar products--that haven't done the right thing or done that process.
I will just give you an example. I met on the west coast with the B.C. spot prawn trap-caught fishers. They seem to me to be doing all the right things. I don't know if they're going through a certification process, but they're certainly working on eliminating bycatch. They have technology on board to show that they're doing all the right things.
From what I can tell, this seems to be something we would really want to promote, with or without the certification process. But for those countries that aren't, how do we compete, and how do we level the playing field in that way?
Director General, Fisheries Renewal, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
It's a good question, actually, and it's something that the international community, the OECD is looking at. Fishing enterprises are also looking at this.
The prawn fishery is a good example of a well-managed fishery, and I agree with you. The level playing field is going to be established by markets. That's today's reality. It is actually through time and through information, actually determining which labels and information out there are credible and which aren't.
If a company or an organization decides not to seek an eco-label, that is their prerogative. There is a way to provide information to purchasers to demonstrate all the examples you provided in terms of the way we manage a fishery, the science, the bycatch-related issues. Some buyers are accepting that information. That is one way that both the industry, together with DFO in terms of providing that information, can satisfy the market demand for sustainability.
The choice, at the end of the day, in terms of whether to go for an eco-label really is in the hands of the industry. It's a business choice and highly dependent, I think, on whether the market actually is asking for it. There are some markets that are not asking for an eco-label. There are markets in the United States...and I think those prawns are actually sold in the U.S., if I'm correct. Depending on where the markets are, they may not need the eco-label to be able to sell it, but they may need to put a package together to demonstrate to their buyers all the good things they're doing.
NDP
Fin Donnelly NDP New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC
From your answer, it sounds like Canada is not going down that path that Iceland is going down.
Director General, Fisheries Renewal, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
No, we are not.
Conservative
Randy Kamp Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Nadia, for coming. I think we've all found it pretty enlightening to hear some of the ins and outs of this.
On this continuum that you describe, with the U.S. on one side and perhaps New Zealand or Iceland on the other end, where does Japan fit in that?
