Fisheries Committee on Nov. 29th, 2011

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Thanks.

For my remaining couple of minutes I'll pass it over to my colleague.

[Ryan Cleary, NDP, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Donnelly.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. My apologies for showing up a little late, but I was caught up in a speech in the House.

Thanks to our witnesses for coming.

Mr. Abbott, I did some research, and you were quoted in the media earlier this month as saying that cuts to Environment Canada and the federal Department of Fisheries and Oceans will make it more difficult for government to investigate cases like the one involving Cooke Aquaculture and the dumping of pesticides—the charges against Cooke for the alleged dumping. You say it's going to make it more difficult to hold the aquaculture industry to account.

Would closed containment mitigate the effects of pesticide use and those types of dangers, in light of government cuts?

[Matthew Abbott]

I think so. Closed containment would effectively introduce biosecurity, so we wouldn't see the kinds of pest infestations that are leading to pesticide use in our marine environment.

[Ryan Cleary, NDP, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

In your answer to Mr. Donnelly's question you said we don't have a full handle on what's going on in our oceans. How would you describe the danger, the environmental impacts, of open-net aquaculture?

[Matthew Abbott]

To stick with the examples we've used today, the waste stream isn't being managed. We're seeing excess nutrients from uneaten feed and salmon feces. There's chemical input from pesticides in particular, but also from antibiotics. So the waste stream is not being managed. I see that as one of the major sources of impact. You've already heard at length from organizations with a great deal of expertise in wild salmon health and efforts at recovery that there are serious concerns about the impact on wild fish as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

You're done.

[Ryan Cleary, NDP, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you.

Mr. Sopuck.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Milewski, I really appreciated your presentation. It was a refreshing change from hyperbole. I like seeing numbers and graphs. I think Mr. Abbott's strongly worded statements about this certain state of affairs would be better backed up by numbers as opposed to emotion. Being a numbers kind of person, I think the numbers will tell the tale.

Ms. Milewski, how much time does it take for an abandoned site to revert back to the original condition in terms of the benthic invertebrates?

[Inka Milewski]

It depends on several factors: the length of time the fish farm has been in operation, the size of the farm, and the current conditions in the farm area.

It is interesting that my Crow Harbour site was only in production for 18 months, yet I didn't see a complete recovery for two years. I didn't have the time or the money to sample in the third and fourth years.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Having worked in the forest industry in the past, I was used to pictures of new clear-cuts that always look bad, yet when you go back to a 30-, 40-, 50-, or 60-year-old forest, it is rapidly reverting to the original condition, so this is a piece of work that really needs to be done.

I was a little surprised that neither of your testimonies talked about the effect on wild salmon. For example, you're probably aware that the Atlantic salmon runs in eastern Canada are increasing fairly dramatically. This particular year was one of the best years ever, even though when I was on the Miramichi I couldn't catch a fish, but that's another story.

I asked Mr. Taylor of the Atlantic Salmon Federation point blank if we will ever need to commercially fish wild Atlantic salmon any more because of aquaculture—and I know their stand on net pen aquaculture—and he had to admit that the commercial fishing of wild salmon should probably never have to occur again, given the production of farmed fish.

Don't you think that's a significant advantage of net pen aquaculture?

[Matthew Abbott]

As you know, many organizations were cited or interested in the development of salmon aquaculture as a way to remove pressure from wild fish, but I believe as you heard from the Atlantic Salmon Federation, it is an abiding concern of ours, and I thank you for raising it. The reason I didn't address it is that I wanted to make sure I covered the topic I was covering in 10 minutes.

There is really clear evidence that there is some impact from open-net pens on wild salmon, so yes, commercial production of salmon takes pressure off a wild salmon fishery. But if the technology being used to commercially produce salmon is also harming wild salmon, then we're not necessarily much further ahead.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

The only way I'd accept that last statement is if any numbers are attached. I hear what you're saying, but without numbers it's not helpful.

At the risk of boring my colleagues to tears, I'd like to repeat what DFO reports in terms of west coast salmon. Coastal aquaculture has been going on there since 1985, and the report was that in 2010, Fraser River sockeye returns were 30 million, the best return since 1913. In 2011 the return was 4.5 million, which is an average return, and overall they report—I could cite this river by river—the Pacific salmon returns in the last couple of years have been good or better than average, and they report that 2011 was the best recreational salmon fishery off the west coast in many years. So again, I think you have to be very careful when you automatically assume and make blanket statements that wild salmon are affected by net pen aquaculture.

In terms of your point about wanting to see net pen aquaculture banned, that's your position, ultimately to transition away from net pens to closed containment?

[Matthew Abbott]

Yes.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Good.

John Holder, who spoke to us, made the point that one of the advantages of closed containment aquaculture is that it can be done anywhere close to markets, whereas net pen aquaculture—and he didn't say this, but obviously net pen aquaculture has to be done near rural, coastal communities. Don't you think that an end to net pen aquaculture would have serious employment effects on coastal communities when closed containment aquaculture inevitably moves closer to inland markets, closer to Chicago and Minneapolis and so on?

[Matthew Abbott]

That's an excellent question and a very important part of the discussion. Again, I'll reassert that I'm glad your committee is taking this issue so seriously.

I would have a few things to say. That's something that I think needs to be considered; it needs to be taken into account when a transition is taking place. We also have to think about the displacement of other economic activities that may be occurring as a result of open-net pen salmon aquaculture. I say maybe, as I was very clear we're still trying to figure out a lot of this, but certainly in southwest New Brunswick we've had a very long and sustainable herring weir fishery, which are traps in coastal environments that catch schools of herring.

The evidence of their displacement by salmon farms is quite clear. It's contained in the CURA report Inka Milewski referenced. Even aerial photography of the outer Bay of Fundy, southwest New Brunswick, over the last 30 years makes a very compelling case for where you can see salmon farms coming in and then weir sites no longer being fished.

I think it's important to factor into that equation economic activities that may be displaced in the rural coastal environment as well, but I agree that's a major consideration.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Yes, because it's government that's going to have to face the reality of the decisions. To say we should take that into account.... We certainly will, but it's a very stark decision that we'll have to make. The thing is, supporting rural coastal communities that have few other employment opportunities is a very high priority with this government.

In terms of the WTO issues, my colleague talked about the higher cost if we go to closed containment aquaculture. The farm market gets flooded with lower-cost, net pen raised fish because we are obliged to buy those under world trade rules. We can't shut them out. We may potentially see the end of closed containment aquaculture except for a few specialized situations.

I see my time is up. Thanks very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you very much, Mr. Sopuck.

Mr. MacAulay.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Abbott and Ms. Milewski, we're pleased to have you here.

You mentioned, Ms. Milewski, that the federal and provincial environmental assessments are not working very well. In your slides you indicated too that there are certain areas where the open-net concept is in place, and other than the worms that are not food for anything there.... In an area where there are no nets, there would be 17 or 18 different species.

I'd just like you to elaborate on that and on what effect you see that having on the area around the open-net area, what effect it would have on the wild salmon and other species.

[Inka Milewski]

Currently when an industry wants to site a fish farm somewhere, they have to go through an environmental assessment process, a federal as well as a provincial process. DFO has developed a decision support system. Basically, there's a checklist and a scoring system of factors that it has to take into account—the depth of the bottom, the proximity to other fisheries, the proximity to other net pens. This scoring system has been applied recently in two instances in Nova Scotia, in St. Mary's Bay and in Shelburne Harbour.

Despite failing to meet the criteria that DFO has set out, these farms have been granted permits to operate. In fact, in the case of Shelburne Harbour, these are now before the courts; the decisions that have been made by the province with advice from DFO have landed these farm applications in court. It's similar in St. Mary's Bay. Fishermen have come forward and said the farms were being put where they fish lobster. The consultants for the proponent for the fish farm have taken bottom video at a time of the year when we would not expect to see lobster and have said, “Look, we didn't find any lobster here. Therefore this is not lobster bottom.” Yet they've ignored the experience and the expertise of people who have fished those areas for 30 years. This is what I'm saying.

The environmental assessment process is where fishermen would come forward and say it's really not a good area because it's where they scallop, it's where they harvest sea urchins, where they lay their lobster traps, or it's an area where they don't actually fish but they know that fish go there to lay their eggs, or their young come to mature, and the habitat is important. They say the activity is going to displace those fish, that they're going to either not survive or go somewhere else and fail to develop.

This is why I'm saying the process is not effective.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Has DFO basically admitted that they have not been effective or have not handled the situation properly in terms of the open-net concept? You referred to DFO acknowledging that there are great difficulties.

Also, you indicated that in these areas where the open-net concept is in place there are no herring. My understanding is that the herring are the food fish for an awful lot of species in the sea, so that would be a major loss.

[Inka Milewski]

It has been. I've participated in scientific advisory reviews that DFO has sponsored or has organized around impacts of salmon aquaculture. There is an admission that the waste discharge from these farms has a small and potentially large ecological footprint. The question is how you manage waste that is basically dispersed into the environment. The aquatic medium is a very difficult environment in which to manage waste. We see that. We see from DFO's own reports that in the coastal zone, because of all the discharges, whether they're from the aquaculture industry or sewage plants or pulp and paper mills or any other kind of activity, we need to put into place the most strict and rigid measures to reduce that waste.

But what do you do at the end of a large net pen? You can't put a pipe on it. This is the problem. Because you can't put a pipe on it, it's very difficult to regulate that waste. If you had closed containment technology, there would be an end of pipe. There would be water coming in. If it's not a closed circulation system, you'd have a pipe coming out and you could measure exactly what's coming out of that pipe.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

The eco-certification that's been mentioned here...do you see eco-certification becoming a difficulty with closed containment, or do you see it becoming a difficulty with the open-net concept because of what happens? Also I'd like you to comment on DFO's conflicting regulatory responsibility, as you indicated. Do you feel that closed containment or open-net fish farming should be under the control of DFO or should it be under some other department?

[Inka Milewski]

If we put it into a land-based closed containment system, we could take it completely out of the hands of DFO. Right now what we have is a department that has to make a decision around siting a farm in an area, and it actually has to ensure that the fish and the water quality in that area are protected, as its responsibility under the Fisheries Act. So it has to enforce the Fisheries Act—no habitat loss. But at the same time, it's making a decision to put a fish farm in an area where habitat loss will occur. It has yet to issue a subsection 35(1) authorization that says you can do that, because it does happen, as you can see from my results.

This is the conflict. Moving it to closed containment would take it out of the hands of DFO, and it would be regulated like every other industry that has an end of pipe.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

As long as we can make some money doing it.