Fisheries Committee on May 3rd, 2018

[Kate Lindsay]

To address some of those concerns, I think equivalency agreements should be looked at, and not as an afterthought but a priority. I believe that provinces have strengthened their regulations in the interim and have been building them such that they could be deemed to be equivalent with the Fisheries Act. I think that's smart policy. I think it's policy coherence, which is something that we recommend.

Instead of a piling on of various levels, we'd rather have a robust assessment to see if the B.C. riparian area regulations in the fish protection act provide the ability to deem equivalence with DFO moving forward. I know that Quebec is also looking at having a one-window approach, but we need the federal legislation to have that regulatory enabling mechanism. I would prioritize that DFO look to develop those regulations so that they can deem equivalency where it exists, to reduce the regulatory burden on proponents but also on DFO staff on the ground everywhere.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

I have one minute.

Mr. Lansbergen, we've talked briefly offline, but I'd like to bring it online here. It's regarding the decision on the west coast with the Ahousaht Nuu-chah-nult decision and the rights that are being recognized.

How do you see that playing out across the rest of Canada at this point, and how might that have an effect? We've already heard that it could affect the Pacific salmon allocation policy, and so on. Could you elaborate?

[Paul Lansbergen]

Sure.

I think it's still a little early to try to describe the full implications of that decision, but I think it does set some precedents that will go beyond the salmon policy. The fact that for co-management negotiations the court said other impacted stakeholders must be involved in those negotiations, I think that is something that would apply across the country.

That's the quick answer. I think it is so complex that there is much more to dive into to figure out.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bernadette Jordan]

Thank you, Mr. Lansbergen.

Now we're going to go to Mr. Donnelly, please, for five minutes.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to all our witnesses for being here and providing your testimony on Bill C-68.

Mr. Berry, you talked about the owner-operator principle. We had some young fish harvesters from the west coast in front of the committee, and they were very passionate about this principle and idea of owner-operator. They were passionate about having fisher harvesters who actually fish being the operators, as opposed to investors who make it more costly or cost prohibitive for some, especially new entrants like them, to get into fishing.

Can you provide any advice from your perspective? You mentioned off the start in your testimony, your successful area in LFA 34. Is there any advice that you could give the west coast?

When Mr. Finnigan was asking you some questions about whether you could envision change, I think your comments about the situation were important. If you look at the west coast, we're faced with the ITQ system, so moving to owner-operators is pretty tricky. Is there any advice that you could provide?

[Bernie Berry]

Mr. Donnelly, I think that unfortunately B.C. took a different approach...or the federal government actually took a different approach back in the seventies when they announced the owner-operator fleet separation. It restricted it to the Atlantic coast and didn't include the west coast. Unfortunately, over time, I think there has been a loss of independence on the west coast. I think it's going to be a hard slog to get it back to a majority of independently owned out there, because it's so ingrained now in corporate quota-owned fisheries, and stuff like that.

That's what we're trying to guard against on the east coast here. There are some fisheries that are quota based, but the main fisheries, like lobster, crab, and some of the smaller ones, are still independent. That's why we're trying to fight to keep it that way, because we think it's the only way to go in the future to enhance our communities.

Again, for the young gentleman out west, I think it's going to be doubly hard. They're going to have to overturn a regime that's been in place for 30 years, the quota regime, and people owning quota who are not on the water, or maybe not even in the province, and stuff like that. I wish him the best, but they're starting from a very, very negative position.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

I agree, and I thank you for your comments.

You also talked about foreign ownership. That was a bit of a hint about how the government could at least look at how foreign ownership is playing an increasing role in the fishery. You mentioned that the government is not even monitoring foreign ownership.

Could you talk a bit about how the government might monitor or better monitor foreign ownership?

[Bernie Berry]

From our perspective, when some of these larger companies are joining forces to access product, I think some of the agreements and deals they've done simply have to be looked at more closely to see who is controlling that company.

Like I said, it's a very tricky situation because it gets into legal matters and all this stuff. I know that in our industry, the lobster fishery, the companies just above the harvesters are becoming larger and larger. They're buying one another out with a lot of foreign involvement, we think. Not just the Asian companies but even the American companies are being very aggressive. They're really trying to secure the product and we see that as a real detriment because, over time, if that's allowed to happen, foreign ownership or not, it's going to create a bottleneck effect in the supply chain. You're going to choke off possible good prices on the shore because the larger companies are simply going to be able to dictate to the fishers what they can and cannot get as a fair shore price.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Great. Thank you very much for your testimony. I really appreciate it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bernadette Jordan]

Thank you.

We're going now to Mr. Hardie.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good morning to all the guests.

Mr. Lansbergen, I'm going to focus my questions your way and preface this by suggesting we to get together offline and have a deeper discussion on some of the issues.

This bill sought to change an approach taken by the previous government, which focused on the commercial, recreational, and aboriginal fish. The fish that were important to those sectors were the ones that would be most protected. There were a lot of people who thought that the habitat needed more attention, which is one of the things we've brought back in this.

I think there's an analogy here to the communities. On the west coast, we're dealing with the economics of it. We have economies of scale, but I think we may have reached a tipping point where we're actually dealing with cartels out on the west coast. The impact on communities appears to be negative and troubling.

I wanted your comment on some research done on the change in landed value from 2000 to 2015. This research was done by the Canadian Council of Professional Fish Harvesters. In Atlantic Canada, the landed value of their catch went up by 59% from 2000 to 2015, and the actual landings were lower in 2015 than they were in 2000. In Alaska, the change in landed value over that period was 84%, with the amount being landed about half that percentage, but it was an increase. In British Columbia, however, the landed value has gone down by 4% over that time, and the amount being landed has also gone down.

Why, in your opinion, is the B.C. industry underperforming compared with its neighbour and its counterpart in eastern Canada?

[Paul Lansbergen]

That's a very good question. First, I would look at what species are being caught, what value they have in the marketplace, and how this has changed over the years. That may provide part of the answer. But I don't know how different that would be, particularly between Alaska and B.C. I think between Atlantic Canada and B.C., there may be more landings in shellfish, which have a higher value, so that might represent the increase in value on the Atlantic side. But quite frankly, I don't know enough to give you much more of an answer on that. I noticed, however, that later this morning you will be hearing from some colleagues—

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Yes, I understand that.

[Paul Lansbergen]

—from B.C., so you could ask them perhaps.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you.

You mentioned that harvesters have to rely on local processors. Tell us, then, if you will, why the largest processing plant in B.C., in Prince Rupert, was shut down and all of that work was transferred to Alaska. How does that work in the interest of B.C. fishers?

[Paul Lansbergen]

I don't know the specifics of that particular plant, to be able to say why it closed and why it transferred to Alaska. Some things that do happen in the economy are unfortunate, so I really can't comment on—

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

This brings us full circle, and I'll conclude with this.

The fact is that we're treating fishing as a commodity and we've maybe traded off a little too much in terms of community. You yourself mentioned how important fishing is to the small communities up and down our coasts, but it seems that those communities in British Columbia, relative to their neighbours and their counterparts, have suffered quite substantially, and I think we need to get to the bottom of this. That's not to say that we have to overturn the current system; maybe it just needs refining. We don't know yet but it's worth a look, and I can promise you there will be a look at it.

[Paul Lansbergen]

I would agree with you that it needs further investigation as to why and how things may progress in the future. I would challenge that I'm not sure how well any of us will do in trying to predict the future. From the forest industry and the experience I have there, I know the provincial governments have tried to dictate a certain industry structure and ultimately failed. I don't know if the government—

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

We know that is attributed to very powerful lobbying efforts versus—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bernadette Jordan]

Thank you, Mr. Hardie. That's your five minutes.

We're going now to Mr. Miller, please, for his five minutes.

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thanks, witnesses.

Bernie, there are a couple of things I want to ask you about. You mentioned the potential of foreign ownership of licences. Is that a big problem, or is it just a potential?

[Bernie Berry]

Right now it's not a big problem, especially on the fishing side. We don't believe that fishing licences are being foreign controlled. There are some mechanisms now in place to stop that. Again I go back to our concern, the buy-in sector of the industry. If that is taken over by foreign ownership, like a lot of other industries, the wealth will just leave the shore and—

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

I get that. I just was trying to figure out if it was a current problem. It appears it isn't at this point.

You mentioned young fishermen. The previous government put in a plan for young farmers or new entrants to agriculture. Obviously, government can't step in and buy these licences and that kind of thing, and I can't remember everything that's in this beginning farmers program, but one of components was basically starter loans at a cheaper interest rate. Is this something that would benefit young fishermen moving into the business?

[Bernie Berry]

Absolutely. I think that's what we're looking for because other industries—as you point out, the agricultural industry—have systems like that in place, even at a provincial level. Even with our provincial government, there are things in place for young individuals wanting to get into farming, grants and so on, but nothing in the fisheries loan board side. It seems as if, for whatever reason, the fishing side's been forgotten.

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Thank you. I'm running out of time.

I want to move to Mr. Lansbergen. You mentioned that it's not necessary and is unhelpful to the principles of reconciliation to move to involuntary relinquishment of licence by the commercial sector. With what happened in the surf clam licensing, where a percentage of it was taken away from Clearwater, that would appear to me not a willing seller. Would that be a good example of what you were meaning by that statement?