Fisheries Committee on Oct. 30th, 2018

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Well, again, I find it just absolutely appalling that they would say to let the courts sort it out.

I think I've used up most of my time, Mr. Chair, but in terms of Churchill itself, it is such a unique situation. There is no situation like it in Canada. I like the phrase said by the witnesses: one size does not fit all. It's quite clear that Churchill needs a complete exemption from these onerous marine mammal regulations that will do no good, only harm.

Thank you.

[The Chair]

Thank you, Mr. Sopuck.

I will note that the bells are ringing. I'll need consent to continue until 5:30, if we can.

Is everybody in agreement? Okay.

Mr. Donnelly, for seven minutes or less.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, witnesses, for coming today and providing your testimony on this important subject of studying the whales. We appreciate it.

The scientists have told us that essentially the three main issues are noise, pollution and prey, or food.

I'll start with you, Monsieur Buy. You mentioned that your association members have been proactive and you talked about the education program, so this is a one-two question. Have you noticed, say, an annual ship strike reduction? Also, what are the results of that education program? Could you talk a bit about how implementing the program went? Were there difficult elements of it? Did it go well? What were the good things?

[Serge Buy]

I think the ship strikes were an issue for the right whales in Atlantic Canada, and on the west coast we're talking about noise reduction. I'll talk about Atlantic Canada.

I think Mr. Doherty asked whether or not ferries were responsible for ship strikes. The fact of the matter is that we have had no ship strikes on ferries in Atlantic Canada that were ever reported to me or to the government or through any of our operators. Indeed, we have an operator, CTMA, that provides services to P.E.I., as an example, and in 75 years of operation from the Magdalen Islands, they have had no ship strikes. We're really proud of that. The work done by our members has ensured that we avoid any ship strikes and we mitigate any impact.

Our members have implemented programs. Those are voluntary programs. I do want to stress that. Those programs have been implemented with the full participation and full happiness of our members, because they want to be part of an effort to save the whales. There have been no issues. The staff has been great to deal with, and there has been support. There has been support even from Transport Canada on some of the things and from Fisheries and Oceans.

We've just heard about the issues at DFO from Mr. Sopuck. I can tell you about the opposite experience at Transport Canada. Michelle Sanders, who heads the program for us, has been wonderfully responsive on the issues and very good. We've had no issues on that.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Madam Simard, you mentioned technology and how you're using it to identify whales and avoid whales, and then also there's the importance of mitigation for noise. Could you elaborate a little on how the industry and the association are working on that?

[Sonia Simard]

At this moment, mostly in the Atlantic, on the issue of how we implemented the dynamic management, it's done through aerial surveillance. We have the planes from DFO and Transport Canada. We're overseeing the area. It's indeed one way to locate those whales, but there are always limitations to each of those technologies, and for aerial surveillance they are weather conditions and daylight.

What we're looking to do is to complete the aerial surveillance with the acoustic surveillance. What is very good is that in Canada we have led technology development in this area with the underwater drones that have hydrophones. They are going out and they detect. They're very efficient in their detection. There are also tests with the bottom-mounted hydrophones, real-time hydrophones.

In short, if you combine real-time acoustics with aerial surveillance, you have much greater confidence in presence and absence, so you support efficient navigation and you protect the whales.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

In the remaining few minutes, Ms. Brown, perhaps you could talk a little bit more about the ECHO program. What are the successes or the things that you would say are the most beneficial results you've had out of the program, from the port's perspective, on reducing impact to southern resident killer whales?

[Carrie Brown]

I think one of the key benefits is bringing together all of the regional players to work on this issue collaboratively, looking at the ECHO program approaches and the key issues with a combination of approaches, including through education. We developed a mariner's guide and we're working on a “whales in our water” tutorial. We introduced incentives in 2017. We're incentivizing quiet technologies and quiet ship design.

We are also undertaking a number of research projects. We've undertaken over 17 research projects that have in turn helped us to inform trials and mitigation solutions. We're continuing to do those research studies. More is coming over the next little while to better understand what are some of the technologies and what are some of the features of a vessel that contribute the most to underwater noise. For us, I think a key success has been industry's interest in advancing the slowdown trial we undertook last year, the implementation of a slowdown in Haro Strait again in the summer of 2018, and the lateral displacement that's about to wrap up in the Strait of Juan de Fuca.

In short, we've had many successes. We approach it from a number of different angles using incentives, education, research and mitigation solutions in a collaborative forum. Really, the strength of the program is the collaboration of its many diverse interests in the region.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

When you identify a problem with noise, when you're talking ship design, how long does it take from the identification of a solution to actual implementation? I would imagine it takes a while.

[Carrie Brown]

It does. Probably Sonia and Serge are in a better position to answer when it comes to the life cycle of a vessel, but it's in the order of decades to replace a fleet.

[Serge Buy]

If I may, it is indeed decades. I would agree with that. Our problem here is that there are potential solutions, but we have a fleet that's aging. When we build a ship, it's for decades. Right now we have some members who are wanting to refit their fleet and make changes, including finding propellers that produce less sound. They can't do that in Canada due to various issues—shipyards are too busy and so on—but the Canadian government, which would want to support this type of change, is charging 25% duties if we come back with a ship that's been refit. We're finding counterproductive measures in this case.

You know, I've often heard committee members ask us questions about what we're doing. Personally, I'd like to talk about what the Canadian government could be doing to support some of those issues. That certainly would be one.

[The Chair]

Thank you.

We'll go back to the government side for questions.

Mr. Hardie.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I'll let Ms. Ludwig have my first question so that she can finish what she was after.

[Karen Ludwig, Liberal, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you.

Many of our witnesses have spoken regarding data collection and its importance in terms of how that feeds into policy when one size does not fit all. Can each of you tell me how you're sharing your data, who you share that with, and if that's being recognized?

[Serge Buy]

A lot of our members on the west coast are members of the ECHO program, and the Port of Vancouver is doing a great job on that. I'm happy to see Carrie here and talking about that.

On the east coast, our members are sharing information with either DFO or the scientific community. They have done so for decades.

[Karen Ludwig, Liberal, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Mr. Daudrich, you talked about a very unique situation in northern Manitoba. Do you share that data as you're collecting it or is it formally collected?

[Walter Daudrich]

We have worked with Oceans North, which is an organization partly funded by the Pew foundation and the federal government. We also share with the Vancouver Aquarium. They have an acoustics specialist.

[Karen Ludwig, Liberal, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you.

[Sonia Simard]

It's the same thing, I would say, for both the domestic.... I'll speak a little bit for them.

Aside from the ferries, there are also the cargo domestic vessels and the international domestic vessels. On the west coast, there is a program for training marine observers on board those vessels. They report their sightings in the same manner, as is the same with any international vessels coming into the waters having information to report.

My last point is that some of our members from the international fleet are doing studies to compare the noise footprints within their fleets. That is also being shared with Transport, to feed their knowledge gap.

[Karen Ludwig, Liberal, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you.

[The Chair]

Thank you very much.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I'll take it back now.

Thank you Mr. Chair.

Ms. Brown, we sit on this committee, and quite often we hear comments like, “Well, we shouldn't do anything until we know for sure what's going on.” There's something compelling about that, except we never know for sure what's going on. That's sometimes code—I'm not saying in this case—for “Don't tag me with something that I'd rather dodge, because it's in my self-interest not to see something else happen.”

So, if you don't want nasty government regulations coming in and messing things up, how will you apply the precautionary principle—which is what you should do when you don't know everything—to make the situation better on the west coast?

We know that the orcas use noise to find their prey, especially in the dark and murky water. You guys make noise, so what are you going to do about it? How will you apply the precautionary principle to forestall government regulations which may be far from perfect?

[Carrie Brown]

Thanks for the question.

Early on, when we first initiated this program, we met with industry and agreed that the science wasn't there. We identified a number of key questions that we had to work through to get ourselves informed.

The science—you're right—is not perfect. It's not exact. In the absence of having all of the answers, we have been implementing a slowdown in Haro Strait. Industry sought to lead that initiative again in the summer of 2018. That's wrapping up as of tomorrow.

We know that is reducing underwater noise. Slowing vessels down in Haro Strait has resulted in a quieter ocean in that area.

In the absence of having all of the answers, we are taking a precautionary approach and implementing mitigation through slowdowns as well as a lateral displacement.

There are actions that are ongoing.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

With regard to your partnership in coming up with these precautionary moves, does that include indigenous people and fishers—people with local knowledge?

[Carrie Brown]

Our advisory working group is a multi-stakeholder group. It includes indigenous individuals, conservation and environmental groups, and I mentioned scientists, the shipping industry. There are different government agencies involved on both the Canadian side and the U.S. side. We recognize that it's an international regional issue.