Evidence of meeting #115 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was whales.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Chair  Mr. Ken McDonald (Avalon, Lib.)
Basil MacLean  President, Area 19 Snow Crab Fishermen's Association
Blaine Calkins  Red Deer—Lacombe, CPC
Owen Bird  Executive Director, Sport Fishing Institute of British Columbia
Martin Paish  Director, Business Development, Sport Fishing Institute of British Columbia
Carol Schmitt  President, Omega Pacific Hatchery Inc.
Colin Fraser  West Nova, Lib.
Brian Tutty  Independent Consultant, Omega Pacific Hatchery Inc.
Serge Buy  Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Ferry Association
Sonia Simard  Director, Legislative Affairs, Shipping Federation of Canada
Carrie Brown  Director, Environmental Programs, Vancouver Fraser Port Authority
Walter Daudrich  President, Lazy Bear Expeditions

3:30 p.m.

The Chair Mr. Ken McDonald (Avalon, Lib.)

Good afternoon, everyone.

Welcome back to committee members who were here earlier in the day as well for a session.

Pursuant to order of reference of Wednesday, June 6, 2018, we are undertaking a study on the situation of endangered whales, M-154.

Joining us this afternoon for this particular session we have Area 19 Snow Crab Fishermen's Association, represented by the president, Basil MacLean.

From the Sport Fishing Institute of British Columbia, we have Martin Paish, director of business development, and Owen Bird, executive director. Welcome, gentlemen.

By telephone from Omega Pacific Hatchery Inc., we have Carol Schmitt, president, and Brian Tutty.

We'll get to statements by our guests with a time frame of up to seven minutes, and then we'll get to our rounds of questioning.

First off, Mr. MacLean, go ahead when you're ready, sir.

3:30 p.m.

Basil MacLean President, Area 19 Snow Crab Fishermen's Association

Good afternoon, everybody. My name is Basil MacLean. I am the president of the Area 19 Snow Crab Fishermen's Association. It is located on the west side of Cape Breton Island on the Gulf of St. Lawrence side.

I am a fisherman myself, 27 years as an owner-operator in the fishery. I represent all the licence holders in our zone. I'm not a lawyer. I'm not a lobbyist. I'm not a very well-educated person, but I'm here, and I thank you once again for allowing me to come and speak to you about the right whale issue.

Just for a little bit of knowledge for everybody, our fishery is a snow crab pot fishery. We border the coastline of Cape Breton Island, and around us are other crab fishing zones, the biggest zone being the area 12 fleet. We're made up of all owner-operators. There are very small communities on the west side of Cape Breton, so everybody knows everybody, and we've always had a fear of the depletion of the biomass, of the stock, and how that would affect us, and we worry about the price in the markets and how that affects us.

Up until last year, we never expected that a whale would be the possible death of us, maybe, if that's the right word to use, but we're here now. You know, fishermen in my zone feel we have a moral obligation to save the whale, to save all marine mammals. It's not the fisherman's intent to have happen what happened two years ago. It was the dynamics of the fishery and how it was executed, and possibly mistakes were made, and hopefully we've learned from them and we're on the path to fishing with the whales, to co-existing with the whales. I guess that's the best word to use, because the whales probably aren't going anywhere. There may be more coming in the future.

The fishery, the snow crab fishery, is probably the major economic driving force on the west coast of Cape Breton. The lobster fishery is there as well, but the snow crab fishery is a very lucrative fishery for the communities, and closing the fishery, in our minds, is not an option. The fishery has to be maintained. If we close the fishery, we might as well as swing the bridge at the causeway, turn off the lights, and that's the end of it for our coastal communities. We don't have a big industry, so it's very important to us.

We took measures last year to protect the right whale for this year, for the 2018 fishery. We're all very happy that we had no deaths in Canadian waters. What factors were the driving factors in those deaths, I don't know. Which measure was the key one? I don't know, and I'd be doubtful if any biologists or professionals could tell you either. I'm just thankful that we did get through the season and that there were no deaths or entanglements, but I don't know how we're going to proceed.

Last week in Halifax I met the Minister of Fisheries. He was down looking for ideas. It was a good session. Everybody has ideas of what can be done and what should be done. I'd like to say my ideas are right, but I can't say that.

I don't know that. Nobody else can say their ideas are right either because 2019 will be a different season, as is every season, from weather to tides to what will come for whales, to biomass in the gulf, how the fishery is executed, and the effort that will be there. So 2019 could be a very different year, but I hope not.

I just saw on the news this morning that whales are an international issue. I saw that Air Canada and WestJet have cut their ties to SeaWorld. It's not only the right whale, it's all whales. It's definitely an international issue.

I don't really know how to end it or what to say. As I say, I'm unprepared. Coming here today got dropped on me.

3:35 p.m.

Blaine Calkins Red Deer—Lacombe, CPC

You got the short straw.

3:35 p.m.

President, Area 19 Snow Crab Fishermen's Association

Basil MacLean

I always draw the short straw. Not every fisherman wants to come and sit and talk to people. I don't know why they chose me. As I say, I'm a volunteer; I'm not paid to be here. I come because I feel that I want to see the fishery go, and I definitely don't want to see the extinction of the whales or any other animals. I worked very hard on getting MSC certification in the Gulf of St. Lawrence for snow crab. It was a hurtful loss to have that suspended last year.

Once again, I thank you for the opportunity to sit here. I look forward to questions.

3:35 p.m.

Mr. Ken McDonald (Avalon, Lib.)

The Chair

Thank you, Mr. MacLean.

Being from Newfoundland, it's encouraging to know you're an owner-operator. I support that wholeheartedly.

We now have representatives from the Sport Fishing Institute of British Columbia.

You're going to split your time. You have seven minutes between you, when you're ready.

3:35 p.m.

Owen Bird Executive Director, Sport Fishing Institute of British Columbia

All right.

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today.

My name is Owen Bird and my colleague is Martin Paish. We are here to talk about southern resident killer whales, or SRKW. We both represent the Sport Fishing lnstitute of British Columbia, or the SFI.

I will take a moment to provide details about our organization and about the sport fishery in British Columbia, and Martin will detail our concerns and observations about SRKW recovery strategy development on the B.C. coast.

The SFI is a non-profit association that represents the interests of 300,000 licensed, tidal-water anglers in B.C., and thousands of businesses that support them. The latest figures available indicate that these businesses produce $936 million in annual sales, and create more than 8,400 jobs and 3,950 person-years of employment, resulting in a $144-million contribution to the province's gross domestic product. The sport fishery is the single-largest economic driver of all B.C. fisheries even though anglers take only 15% of the annual halibut catch and less than 10% of the annual salmon harvest.

As you may know, the sport fishing contribution to the Canadian economy is at least $8.3 billion annually. The SFI are strong supporters of the recovery of SRKW and of the residents of the small B.C. coastal communities who depend on fishing and related tourism activities as a key component of their livelihoods, family, social activity and food security.

As such, Martin will provide specific details regarding our suggestions and approach to the SRKW recovery strategy.

3:40 p.m.

Martin Paish Director, Business Development, Sport Fishing Institute of British Columbia

Hello, and thank you for the opportunity to appear before this committee.

We would like to suggest to you today that the goal of having both a recovered southern resident killer whale population and a vibrant, sustainable recreational fishery should be the Government of Canada's stated objective.

As the Prime Minister recently declared, “In the 21st century, we don't have to choose between a healthy environment and a strong economy. They must go together.” We believe this is certainly true in the case of southern resident killer whales and the communities that share the environment with them. However, the government must make the necessary investments in chinook production and sound scientific research to enable this to happen.

The challenge we face is that so far, DFO has focused mainly on restricting recreational fishing activity in its attempt to address the problem. While no research has been conducted nor evidence collected that these large-scale closures are in any way effective in enabling southern resident killer whales to access more prey, the closures have created significant social and economic disruption in communities like Sooke on southern Vancouver Island, and threaten to exacerbate the disruption with the designation of critical habitat extensions. To make matters worse, these closures were implemented against the advice of both Pacific region DFO staff and a group of marine mammal scientists and fishery managers who convened in November 2017 to come up with solutions to address the accessibility of prey for southern resident killer whales.

We believe that both the whales and the residents of small coastal communities in British Columbia deserve better, and we are seeking your support in ensuring that they get that moving forward.

The unfortunate fact is that the recent proposal for the designation of a huge area of the west coast of Vancouver Island as critical habitat is based on inference, faith and hope rather than science, evidence and sound research. The data used to support the claim that this is critical habitat is poorly designed and lacks the certainty that is required to justify the devastating impacts that large-scale closures will have on the communities that depend on recreational fishing activity. We don't have time to get into the details of the data gaps and potential economic impact today, but we would be pleased for the opportunity to provide the relevant documents and available reports.

As stated, we believe that the Government of Canada can do the right thing for both whales and local communities, but it requires investment, a transparent reliance on evidence-based research and science, and a multi-faceted approach.

First, we believe that DFO needs to invest in gaining a greater understanding of what represents critical habitat for these animals. As stated, the current critical habitat extension designation proposal is based on very infrequent sightings and acoustic monitoring data that demonstrates that in fact the whales are only sporadically present in the area, but counters this with the inference that, and I quote, “It also includes several other relatively shallow banks including La Perouse Bank to the northwest which, like Swiftsure Bank, are among the most productive fishing area for Chinook and other salmonids on the North American west coast. It is probable that the whales make greater use of these banks than the modest number of documented Resident Killer Whale encounters might suggest—this is likely a reflection of the relatively low observer effort in those areas.” That is Ford et al, 2017, which is the critical habitat extension proposal.

“Probable” and “likely” aren't good enough for either the whales or the residents of the west coast of Vancouver Island whose livelihoods and communities are on the line. We urge DFO to invest in the necessary research to make sure we make decisions properly and effectively the first time. It is very possible we may only have one chance to do this right.

Second, we urge DFO to understand that cutting back the 1% to 3% exploitation rates that ocean recreational fisheries currently produce on Fraser River chinook stocks has not and will not increase the availability of chinook to southern resident killer whales. While imposing huge closed areas may look good on a map, it won't do anything for the whales. That same working group struck by DFO of the leading scientists and researchers in the Pacific northwest reached exactly this same conclusion in November 2017.

To address the availability of prey we urge DFO to reinvest in salmon production using strategic enhancement of stocks favoured by southern resident killer whales and to consider focused predator control programs on seals and sea lions that are targeting juvenile salmonids as they leave the Fraser and other important chinook-producing streams in the Salish Sea. Similar measures are being considered in Washington state as part of their recovery plan.

Largely due to budget cuts, salmonid enhancement production of Fraser River-bound chinook, which are the key stocks that southern resident killer whales depend on, have been reduced from just over 15 million in the 1990s, when southern resident killer whales were increasing in their population, to less than three million today. We need to turn this situation around, and we have the expertise to do this. All it requires is funding and political will.

While a much more controversial issue, the population of seals and sea lions in the Salish Sea has increased tenfold since they were protected in the 1970s and they are now estimated to consume up to 47% of all salmon smolts leaving the river systems that drain into the Salish Sea.

We suggest that careful study is required to identify exactly where the problems exist, and that they are then addressed accordingly.

Finally, we urge DFO to listen to its experts, and instead of implementing large areas closed only to recreational fishing activity, to use the concept of a moving protective bubble of a minimum 200 metres in non-refuge areas, and 400 metres in important foraging areas. This would provide the necessary lack of competition for prey, and the elimination, not just reduction, of physical and acoustic disturbance, to enable effective foraging. Again, this measure is being considered in Washington state.

Implementing this measure is a function of education and awareness amongst boaters, whale-watching fleets and fishermen, and is largely under way as a result of the recent move this summer from 100 metres to 200 metres. Anglers have once again been leaders in this area, adopting voluntary best practices that include turning off sonar equipment, removing fishing gear from the water and slowly moving away from whales if they are spotted.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for taking the time to listen to us. We urge you to consider meaningful, effective and science-based solutions rather than measures designed to provide the optics that something is being done. Both the southern resident killer whales and the residents of British Columbia's coastal communities are depending on our government to do the right thing.

3:45 p.m.

Mr. Ken McDonald (Avalon, Lib.)

The Chair

Thank you, gentlemen.

We will now go to the Omega Pacific Hatchery Inc.

Ms. Schmitt and Mr. Tutty, can you hear us?

3:45 p.m.

Carol Schmitt President, Omega Pacific Hatchery Inc.

Mr. Chair, yes, we can, and thank you for inviting us to provide our knowledge and experience in support of the endangered southern resident killer whales and all the fisheries, all of which are dependent on healthy chinook populations.

I'm an owner-operator of Omega Pacific Hatchery. We're located in the centre of Vancouver Island, British Columbia, the centre of southern resident killer whale chinook country.

My extensive work has been with the provincial fisheries, as well as past federal fisheries hatcheries and private hatcheries. My 38-year career has been dedicated to chinook culture excellence.

In 1987, we built Omega Pacific hatchery, situated on the southern shore of Great Central Lake. This site has a remarkable cold-water supply, and there are no fish upstream, so it is disease free. This was conducive to growing a one-year-old, stream-type overwintering chinook.

Our natural slow-growth process results in a more physiologically competent smolt, has the identical life history of coho and is consistent with documented findings of wild yearling chinooks throughout Vancouver Island streams. The chinook eggs hatch and emerge in April and May at half a gram, slowly grow for an additional year in cold-water conditions and are released the following April.

With me is Mr. Brian Tutty, a DFO habitat biologist having 33 years' experience, who trapped and discovered overwintering chinook in the upper Fraser River during the McGregor hydro project and Nechako investigations. He has written a report, and in it cautioned that stream-type chinook were likely underpraised as contributors to the B.C. fisheries and that SEP should consider this important chinook life history within its planned Fraser hatchery development program.

Since then I've been consulting with Brian, and Brian has been consulting with us and providing additional advice to Mr. Chris Bos and me, who, together have a project concept linked with the subject of this presentation.

I'll say a bit about our hatchery results. We've grown yearling S1s for 30 years, and in early 1996, our smolts were assessed as part of the co-operative assessment salmonid health program for aquaculture, which attained 98% survivals to harvest. Our freshwater juvenile rearing program is transferable to the enhancement program. We predicted marine survivals would increase to 5% to 10% compared to DFO's hatchery ocean S0 marine survival, which is 0.02% to 0.06%.

DFO previously grew 16 trials with S1s, but did not have greater results. However, in 2009, Mr. Paul Sprout, who was the RDG, directed his staff to revisit the use of S1s and work with Omega Pacific, with the goal of increasing chinook survival rates.

To date, Omega Pacific has produced 478,000 S1 chinook for 10 releases, with four complete datasets. Seven years are required from the initial egg stage until all the adults return. All of our S1 juveniles released were coded wire tagged and adipose clipped. Omega's projects and support of the strategy were only possible due to the support and financial contribution of many groups, which I have listed in our brief.

The adipose fin clip and coded wire tag pin are numerical pins. The coded wire tag is placed into the fish's nose, and as the fish are captured in the wild as adults, the head of any fish missing the adipose fin is removed, and the pin later read. The number, which is specific to that release group of fish, is placed in a Pacific-wide data bank. Therefore, we can assess where all the fish we have grown are captured: their date, fishery, number of fish captured and overall survivals.

To date, for Omega's S1 releases for the West Coast Vancouver Island and Georgia Strait, our first four-year results had greater than 5% marine survivals, a two to eight-times greater number of adult spawners as compared to the same stream S0 releases. An eight to 31 times greater number of coded wire fish were recovered, compared to federal production S0 releases; few jacks—

3:50 p.m.

Mr. Ken McDonald (Avalon, Lib.)

The Chair

Excuse me, Ms. Schmitt. Could you slow down a tiny bit? The interpreters are having trouble translating into French as you're speaking. They have the same problem with me at times, my being from Newfoundland, but I'm used to it. They'd appreciate it. Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

President, Omega Pacific Hatchery Inc.

Carol Schmitt

Okay.

We have fewer jacks, low straying, and older and larger tyee—over 30-pound—chinooks have returned from the S1 releases.

We have a solution here. SARA outlined four objectives for the recovery of the southern resident killer whale. Our work is applicable to objective number one, which is to increase feed availability. Seventy-five per cent of the diet is preferably large chinook salmon. Many wild chinook stocks have been reduced to low escapements and have been unable to increase due to a low survival. Our hatchery demonstrated that a 50,000 S1 release will increase adult returns from a few hundred to over 1,500 returns in four years.

The Office of the Washington State Auditor, which assessed 25 hatcheries growing S1 and S0 smolts, recommended that only those hatcheries that had survivals with the S1s should continue to grow them. The Washington state biologists only use S1s to rebuild low-level stocks.

Current releases from DFO are approximately 27 million, almost entirely S0 ocean-type chinooks. Over the past decade, we've developed an effective strategy for rebuilding some of the stocks in low abundance. ln addition, when coupled with smolt pen-rearing technology, even higher survival rates are possible. However, no other projects have been approved, other than one S0 versus S1 survival experiment, in the the last two years.

Omega's facilities and knowledge in improving chinook enhancement is an excellent, well-placed Canadian resource that is significantly underutilized.

The following are our recommendations for a solution:

First, Omega Hatchery's cold-water facility, which is the only site with a proven track record, should grow S1 chinook to be used to rebuild low-level stocks, which will feed orcas and recreational, commercial and first nations fisheries.

Second, DFO should provide support for the costs to grow the S1s, including the current 209,000 chinook we have at our hatchery.

Third, representing the South Vancouver Island Anglers Coalition, Mr. Chris Bos has developed an orca food sustainability program over the past three years at Sooke. It is a 30-day estuary pen-rearing component that increases the size of S0s prior to release and doubles their survival rate. Chris presented an expanded program to DFO's regional headquarters just yesterday in Vancouver, and has identified as many as 17 potential project sites.

Fourth, a cohort of S1 chinook could be introduced to the same pens before the S0s arrive to imprint prior release. This double-barrelled approach is an immediate approach that would substantially increase chinook food available to the resident killer whales by having both S1 and S0 chinook released in the same spring.

Finally, Omega Pacific can grow one million S1 chinook annually for 10 different projects in the southern resident killer whale critical feeding areas. This strategy could increase the number of adult chinook if Chris Bos's program and Omega's synergies were combined. This strategy may also avoid having to close areas that would cause a devastating local economic impact.

Dr. Beamish from the Pacific biological station and Dr. Brian Riddell, from the Pacific Salmon Foundation have encouraged Omega Pacific, especially in this era of climate change—

3:55 p.m.

Mr. Ken McDonald (Avalon, Lib.)

The Chair

Excuse me, Ms. Schmitt, but you've exhausted the seven minutes allowed. I suggest that any recommendations that don't come out in the questions be submitted in writing to the committee to be entered as evidence for us to consider.

I'll start now with the rounds of questioning. The first question goes of course to the Liberal side.

Mr. Fraser.

3:55 p.m.

Colin Fraser West Nova, Lib.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, everyone. Thanks very much for being here. I appreciate your taking the time to come to our committee to share with us some of your wisdom.

Mr. MacLean, I'd like to start with you. I appreciate your being here on behalf of snow crab fishermen. It is important that you have a representative at the table to share some of your thoughts on this stuff.

Being from the southwestern part of Nova Scotia, I know exactly how important the fishery is to our small rural communities. It is the backbone of many of these coastal communities you talk about. I don't have as much of a snow crab fishery down my way, but obviously there's lots of lobster throughout Nova Scotia and in Cape Breton and your area, too.

I'm well familiar with how lucrative the snow crab fishery is in your area. I'm glad you mentioned the Marine Stewardship Council certification and how important that is to the industry. I'm wondering if you could explain to the committee, from your point of view and that of the people you represent, what the MSC certification means to you.

3:55 p.m.

President, Area 19 Snow Crab Fishermen's Association

Basil MacLean

The MSC certification certifies that the product has come from a sustainable resource, where it's harvested properly and you're not damaging the stock, the ecosystem, or anything with it. It means a lot to consumers, especially the European markets, where it's probably at the forefront, but the U.S. is a major snow crab consumer now as well, being our biggest consumer. It has become a big, hot topic down there. People want to purchase sustainable seafood.

It makes it difficult for our plants. I've attended the Boston seafood show pretty well every year and have spent quite a bit of time trying to market the snow crab. I don't want to talk about the processing, because it's not my field. It's tough for the plants. If they have snow crab coming in from an area that is MSC certified and they also have snow crab coming from an area that's not MSC certified, they can't mix it on the line. It becomes tough for the local plants.

At the end of the day, it affects the price. I might as well be truthful; I fish for money, not for fish. The most money I can get out of my product is what I'm looking for. That MSC label is a huge tool in selling the market. We've been marketing gulf snow crab, especially area 19 snow crab, as the cream of the crop.

3:55 p.m.

West Nova, Lib.

Colin Fraser

It's the highest quality, and it has that reputation. So it's important for the MSC to put that mark of approval on it.

4 p.m.

President, Area 19 Snow Crab Fishermen's Association

Basil MacLean

It is, absolutely. For us, it's key.

Having that suspended this year was a setback, but I can understand the justification behind it. It certainly makes sense. We didn't lose it; it's been suspended.

4 p.m.

West Nova, Lib.

Colin Fraser

Yes, true.

4 p.m.

President, Area 19 Snow Crab Fishermen's Association

Basil MacLean

We're hopeful that we're going to regain it.

4 p.m.

West Nova, Lib.

Colin Fraser

Yes, and I know we're heading in that direction. I appreciate your comments on that.

There was obviously some frustration and, hopefully, some lessons learned out of the things that have happened over the last couple of years. I wonder if you could speak to the level of consultation your industry, from your perspective, has had with DFO. I know there have been some major concerns around that. I want to hear from you what you think effective consultation would look like.

4 p.m.

President, Area 19 Snow Crab Fishermen's Association

Basil MacLean

We had good consultations last week in Halifax. We had key department officials from Ottawa and Moncton and Quebec, which is the gulf region. The minister was there for the morning. There were a lot of good ideas.

Prior to that consultation, we had consultations—I guess I ought to back up to January. Some recommendations came from the department. We thought they were doable, but then when it came back to us two months later, the criteria or the kick-out levels of when areas would close all changed.

We fishermen didn't have the proper consultation then. We felt that maybe we got overlooked by...I'm not sure if it was the department or if it came from higher up.

4 p.m.

West Nova, Lib.

Colin Fraser

Obviously, the meetings last week in Nova Scotia went pretty well. Things seem to have improved in making sure the stakeholders involved are consulted and listened to, and making sure we are learning from past mistakes that might have been made.

4 p.m.

President, Area 19 Snow Crab Fishermen's Association

Basil MacLean

I believe that Monday and Tuesday last week were a step in the right direction. I understand where it's tough. I watch question period, so I get to see you guys argue back and forth, but you should try a bunch of fishermen arguing back and forth. Sometimes it's maybe not the brightest comments that come out, but.... It is tough, for sure, to put that many different personalities in a room and expect the outcome to be productive.

I was very pleased with last week. I was pleased with the consultation. I was pleased with the ideas, and I was pleased to hear the minister's comments, but at the end of the day, I'm not so sure. For changes for the snow crab fishery, I'm fearful moving forward. I'm hopeful that 2019 will repeat 2018, but of course I'm fearful that 2019 will repeat 2017, and that would be a disaster.

4 p.m.

West Nova, Lib.

Colin Fraser

My time is up, Mr. MacLean. I wish I had more time, obviously, but I really appreciate your being here and being candid with the committee.

Thank you.

4 p.m.

Mr. Ken McDonald (Avalon, Lib.)

The Chair

Now we'll move to the Conservative side, to Mr. Doherty, who'll share his time with Mr. Arnold, who'll share his time with Mr. Calkins. I'll leave it up to you how you're going to share it.

October 30th, 2018 / 4 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

We'll see how we go from here.

Mr. MacLean, Mr. Bird, Mr. Paish and Ms. Schmitt on the line, I want to say how important it is that you are here. This is among the most valuable feedback we can receive. Let me give you a couple of examples as to why.

Earlier today, we held another committee meeting. I'm not sure whether you tuned in to it. We heard that seals were not really the issue, or that predation management wasn't needed. That was one of the testimonies we heard. In fact, collectively, I believe all five witnesses said that wasn't really what was needed. They suggested we should harass the seals instead as a way to make things better.

The other thing that was mentioned—which Ms. Schmitt might take some offence to—was that hatchery fish do not grow to the size that would be beneficial. The product that you would grow wouldn't be beneficial in helping solve the chinook problem. I believe that's what was said.

That's why it's important that you're here, because if we don't hear from you, the voices of others carry the day.

Mr. MacLean, in the past you have gone on record as saying that some of the policy process has been the most unopen and untransparent process out there. You gave us hope today that there was some consultation last week, but are they listening or are they telling? I've also heard, during consultation in the past, that DFO was telling you how it's going to be.

All of you, do you feel like your industry has been under attack?

Mr. MacLean.