Fisheries Committee on Nov. 1st, 2018

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Okay, thank you.

Mr. Burns, a few moments ago you were asked about competing predators on salmon, such as seal populations, sea lions and so on. You indicated that a lot more science is required before starting to manage those stocks.

How much more science is required when all reports are that the seal populations in that area of the coast are ten times or more than their historical levels? When does the science ever catch up to the reality?

[Adam Burns]

The issue here, of course, is that there is a broad ecosystem-based assessment that would need to be undertaken. There is no doubt that the seals you're talking about have salmon as a prey, for example—

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

It has been known for 10 years or more through studies on the Puntledge River, I believe, that the seal predation on smolts was obviously seen to be a problem. There was a management program put in place then. Now the numbers are 10 times that, from what I've seen and heard. Everyone is asking why something can't be done. What's the holdup? How much science do we need?

[Adam Burns]

It really is a matter of understanding what benefits would be achieved by population control. As an example, for the harbour seals, which I think are one of the main species we're talking about here, the studies we have show that in the Strait of Georgia, for example, only about 10% of their diet is made up of salmon. Their primary prey is—

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

That 10% is at a key time when those smolts are migrating out of the river and can be up as high as 90% of their diet. That science is there. Why the delays in DFO taking action?

[Adam Burns]

It really is about the ecosystem consideration there. Harbour seals are also the prey of other whale populations—

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

They are transient killer whales and there's no problem with their population numbers. Southern residents do not prey on seals or sea lions. Why the delay?

[Adam Burns]

You're right that the preferred food source for southern residents is the chinook food source. All I can tell you is that there is a broader set of considerations that need to be better understood.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Do you have population targets set for killer whales or for the prey species or their competing predators?

[Adam Burns]

I don't know in terms of the recovery plan for southern resident killer whales....

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Wouldn't that be the first step in determining how many you really need and how many are environmentally sustainable?

[Adam Burns]

You're talking about for the harbour seal...?

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

I'm talking about harbour seals. I'm talking about orcas. I'm talking about chinook salmon. Do you have any targets or goals that you can be held accountable to?

[Philippe Morel]

For the killer whales, the target is an increase in population.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

To what? Is this forever?

[Philippe Morel]

Well, we don't know, but certainly it's at lower levels since 1980. I don't have the exact number for where we should be, but right now what we're noticing is a decrease in the population that is constant over many years, and that is clearly related to the impact of noise, the reduction of prey, and some contaminants, so what—

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

You have no target numbers that you would like to bring it back to?

[Philippe Morel]

It doesn't work like that on recovery for species. There's no critical point at which we say it has recovered—

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Has any species that has been listed as at risk ever been brought off that list?

[Philippe Morel]

Sure. There are some species. I don't have the names with me, but there are some species that were put on the list by COSEWIC and after a certain period of time were reassessed. COSEWIC does reassess the species, sometimes from endangered to threatened or of special concern, or they are just taken off the list. It does happen.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

When could we expect some target numbers to be set for the chinook stocks, the seal populations and the killer whales?

[Philippe Morel]

I don't think you will see a target to say that 76, 85 or 100 is a target. It's about how they survive in the ecosystem, if they are in good health and if they can reproduce. Any increase will be analyzed by our science and the trends will be demonstrated to us, but there's no number. It's not an economic or a market—

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

There are no real goals so nobody can be held accountable.

Thank you.

[Philippe Morel]

Well, there's no way we can set goals on these kinds of things.

Mr. Arnold, I found the answer for the second retardant. It's HBCD. You asked for the two fire retardants.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Where is it used?