Evidence of meeting #119 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was communities.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
That's great. Can I ask that our witness provides that to the committee?
Thank you.
12:30 p.m.
Mr. Ken McDonald (Avalon, Lib.)
Thank you, Mr. Doherty.
Now to Mr. Donnelly for seven minutes or less, please.
12:30 p.m.
NDP
Fin Donnelly NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to our witnesses for your testimony and your presentations today.
Mr. Wentzell, I'm looking at your document that provides an excellent overview, which I think is very helpful for the committee, certainly from my perspective, given that the committee has travelled to the east and west coasts and inland as well and talked to many harbour authorities.
Is there a standard definition of “small craft”? What is small, and then what is too big for a small craft harbour?
Either witness could answer that.
12:30 p.m.
Committee Representative, Pacific Regional Harbour Authority Advisory Committee
I can say something, if you like. I think that Mr. Wentzell did comment that the numbers and the sizes of boats have been increasing. We have noted that on the west coast also.
12:30 p.m.
Committee Representative, Pacific Regional Harbour Authority Advisory Committee
It's 60 tonnes.
Some may be bigger.
12:30 p.m.
NDP
12:30 p.m.
Committee Representative, National Harbour Authority Advisory Committee
That's been an ongoing debate in our region because the harbours were designed for smaller vessels, and the vessels are larger now. Some small craft harbours had 100-foot vessels in them and 125- and 130-foot vessels.
In the fishery I'm involved in, we are limited by size per licence, so we are designed to 44 feet 11 inches but we go wider. You have 1,700 licence holders in southwestern Nova Scotia in lobster alone, and we are limited by size and length but we can go to the widths, so the vessels have increased in size to 44 feet 11 inches. They used to only be 16, 17, or 18 feet wide and now they are 30 and 32 feet wide. They are more like a square on the water.
But, no, there is nothing there to—
November 8th, 2018 / 12:35 p.m.
NDP
Fin Donnelly NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
When we've talked to a number of others, we've heard the concerns you've just mentioned. These are significant investments for fishermen to invest in these $1-million or $2-million boats, or more. Of course, they're getting larger, but the infrastructure designed to keep them safe isn't keeping up with the investment the fishermen are making in their vessels. That has been one of the questions I've been asking. How can the small craft harbours program recognize this and keep up?
Mr. Wentzell, you identified many of the concerns we'd heard from a lot of HAs across the country. You talked about aging wharfs and infrastructure, overcrowding, climate change and growing aquaculture, and you really emphasized dredging. You also talked about safety, A-base funding and non-core harbours.
Mr. Mauro, as well as the dredging, you talked about the design process, the relationship with volunteer HAs and understanding the larger role the HAs play in the community. We heard these mentioned in the field as well.
This is for both of you, particularly Mr. Wentzell from a national perspective. This was in earlier questioning and you may not have it, but I'm wondering if there's a document or a study available. Knowing what the collective financial needs are to bring all the harbours across the country up to a recognizable standard—so in terms of the operational shortfall and the capital needs—has there been a study done in the past, or is there one currently happening?
I have to say, Mr. Wentzell, the document you provided is very helpful. It provides a lot of the financial picture of harbour authorities and what they're facing, but I'm wondering about a collective approach. If the government were to look at a 10-year program to tackle the problem of the financial needs of small craft harbours across the country, can it point to a document that explains what we're currently operating under, the organizational shortfall and the capital needs? Given the concerns you've identified, limited tax dollars of course, and some of the challenges like climate change or—as we just mentioned—indigenous relations and talks with our first nations, and of course factoring in divestiture with non-core facilities....
I guess that's a long-winded question. Is there such a document or a study that's happened, that you know of, that the committee could look at?
12:35 p.m.
Committee Representative, National Harbour Authority Advisory Committee
We have the same document here that I submitted to you, with the numbers regarding what it costs every year to keep and maintain the structures. As far as the long term goes, to bring them right back to the significant standard where they should be, I don't have that right now and I'm not sure it exists, but like I said before, I can find out and get back to the committee from someone within small craft harbours.
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Fin Donnelly NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Let me put it this way: Is this something you'd like to see as a recommendation? Would you like to see the government either assist or work with the small craft harbour program to develop a document that would identify these concerns in a financial way?
12:35 p.m.
Committee Representative, National Harbour Authority Advisory Committee
Most definitely, because even today we still have unsafe harbours in some areas. Even with all the B-base funding that's come in to dress up the program over the years, we still have harbours that are unsafe. They're barricaded facilities, but fishermen are using them because they're in their communities and they have to find a way to get on those wharves and fish. They have to get on the water to make a living.
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Fin Donnelly NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Maybe Mr. Mauro could give a very short response. We're out of time.
12:35 p.m.
Committee Representative, Pacific Regional Harbour Authority Advisory Committee
Yes, obviously an overall plan would be a good idea. It's a fairly comprehensive study, but along with an overall plan, you have to balance it, and a 10-year plan is sometimes difficult to finance.
Yes, I think we need it.
12:40 p.m.
Mr. Ken McDonald (Avalon, Lib.)
Thank you, Mr. Donnelly.
We'll go back to the government side and Mr. Fraser, for seven minutes or less, please.
12:40 p.m.
West Nova, Lib.
Thanks very much, Mr. Chair. Thank you both for joining us today. I appreciated your presentations and your thoughts.
Mr. Wentzell, I wanted to start with you.
I'm from Yarmouth, so I'm familiar with many of the points you raised. Down our way and throughout my riding of West Nova, we hear from lots of harbour authorities that the dredging work that takes place doesn't do the full job, so they have to do it again after a couple of years. If they actually did the job properly in the first place, they would not need to come back in a couple of years to do another half-job.
Do you agree with that suggestion? Your document says the funds for dredging are not adequate to get the job done, but do you see the need for separating out the dredging budget from the regular capital budget of small craft harbours?
12:40 p.m.
Committee Representative, National Harbour Authority Advisory Committee
Yes, there's been considerable discussion on that within the community. There is concern about the strain that dredging is putting on the actual budget as a whole, because it takes so much money, right off the top at the start of the year, just to maintain regular maintenance dredging. You have to look at climate change and the storms. They're bigger than they used to be. They are more intense. You're getting more sediment damage, more water flow around the facilities. It is putting a strain on the program in that regard.
12:40 p.m.
West Nova, Lib.
Does dredging actually have an impact on the capacity issue, because of the room that you have within a harbour to, say, turn a boat around or get in and out of the harbour facility? Can dredging actually help the capacity issue to at least some degree?
12:40 p.m.
Committee Representative, National Harbour Authority Advisory Committee
Yes, most definitely. In some of the areas, like in my particular harbour, we have a dredging issue. We can't get dredged because of the high cost of getting rid of dredge spoils. We used to dredge and put it on federal crown property within the facility, but now they want it trucked away to a federal containment site on approved fill, and the closest one is 70 miles away. When you're talking about removing sediment from a smaller harbour like my own, it's a weigh and a balance thing of where you're going to do the work. In larger harbours, you have that problem also.
12:40 p.m.
West Nova, Lib.
My understanding is that there's a limited number of businesses that actually do the dredging work. They are oftentimes having to move around to go to emergencies or take priority away from one harbour to another. It means that the full job isn't getting done anywhere. That's a concern, don't you think?
12:40 p.m.
Committee Representative, National Harbour Authority Advisory Committee
That's right. There's also a limited number of contractors who meet the environmental requirements. Each province is different in regard to environmental requirements. Nova Scotia has put in some very stringent standards over the last few years. They have been working on them, and it's been getting a little bit easier, I should say. It was quite difficult three years ago. It's gotten better as of late.
12:40 p.m.
West Nova, Lib.
I want to talk a minute about the national harbour authority advisory committee, and I thank you for the work you guys are doing.
Do you have any recommendations for our committee about how your work with the federal government could be made easier? How could your advisory committee be strengthened in the advocacy that you do in advising the government on what steps could be taken to improve things?
12:40 p.m.
Committee Representative, National Harbour Authority Advisory Committee
We have a strong core group of people at that table right now. We advise on different things in regard to capacity issues and any issue that may come up, from dredging to overcrowding to how we can increase our revenue models.
That being said, it all comes back to dollars at the end of the day. You need funding for these harbours to maintain the fishing industry. These are federal crown properties in the government asset base. They need to be maintained and taken care of.
12:40 p.m.
West Nova, Lib.
Absolutely.
I want to turn for a moment to the issue of safety on our wharves. We know there's an issue with the state of repair of some wharves. We know there's an issue with capacity at other wharves. We know that some have both problems happening at the same time.
Don't you agree that the safety of our fishermen is put possibly in peril when we don't have adequate facilities for them to unload and offload their boats and come into harbour safely?
12:40 p.m.
Committee Representative, National Harbour Authority Advisory Committee
Most definitely. I go back to climate change. You get a facility that's maybe been neglected. Maybe the rock wall isn't as high as it should be. The protection isn't as high. You get a severe storm that comes into the area.
I fish in wintertime, and when I saw the hurricane-force winds come through the area last year in January, and I saw a weather forecast for 16-metre seas, I honestly didn't believe what I was reading on my weather forecast. I didn't think it was possible. I never saw that in my 35 years around the water, but I saw it last year.
It's putting a strain on the facilities. It's more wind damage. As they get dilapidated it's harder to get them back up to standard.