Fisheries Committee on Nov. 8th, 2018

[Colin Fraser]

One other thing I haven't heard discussed has to do with the issue of capacity at our wharves and the work being done in the boat shops, especially in Nova Scotia down my way. I know all the boat shops are so busy right now, trying to turn out these boats to make them wider, to give the fishermen better tools so that they can be more efficient in increasing their catch and becoming more profitable. I know how busy the boat shops are, but the fact that there are capacity issues at our wharves means that these guys aren't sure if they're going to be able to build a new boat, because there might not be anywhere to dock it.

Isn't this a bit of a concern?

[Tim Wentzell]

Some harbour authorities have said that before a new member can get a new vessel, he should go before the board of the harbour authority and request an actual size increase.

We don't have that at our facility because we only have a small number of users, but there are larger facilities where that mechanism had to be put in place. They didn't know how else to handle the situation.

[Colin Fraser]

These boat shops employ an awful lot of people in these local communities, don't they?

[Tim Wentzell]

Yes, they do. It's a very vibrant industry. As the fishing industry goes, so goes the rest of the economy in certain areas.

[Colin Fraser]

Thanks very much.

[The Chair]

Thank you, Mr. Fraser.

We will go back now to the Conservative side.

Mr. Arnold.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you both for being available today.

I have a question for Mr. Wentzell.

I'm going through the document you provided to the committee. Thank you for doing that.

The national harbour authority advisory committee was established in 2001 as an adviser to the small craft harbours program. How long before the creation of the advisory committee had the small craft harbours program been in existence?

[Tim Wentzell]

To my knowledge, the small craft harbours program has been in existence since right after the war. Small craft harbours managed all the harbours, and in 1988, they started to do the harbour authority model, where they turned the running of the actual harbours over to local users. You have input from the local users on how to manage the facility and what kinds of upgrades they need, instead of someone coming in and more or less deciding from the outside what you need in your community.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

That's the direction I was going with this.

Part of what we've heard in testimony so far—maybe to you as a representative from this larger body—is that there seems to be a disconnect between the local users, the fishermen and the harbour authorities, and the people who are making the decisions on how a project is engineered and actually implemented.

Can you comment on that?

[Tim Wentzell]

There always was some of that in the past. It has been better, because the users have more input now.

At the end of the day, most of the volunteers around the communities who are running the harbour authorities are not engineers. They may have knowledge of a facility and how they're going to do that, but they're not engineers as such. They don't have the knowledge to input things in regard to how the project should be handled in certain ways.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

I want to move to page 10 of your report now, where you talk about more dredging being needed. It says, “Deeper basins and channels are needed—mainly due to larger vessels and climate change which is causing increased sedimentation.”

Would you be able to provide any evidence that climate change is the cause of the greater sedimentation?

[Tim Wentzell]

I'm just going by what I've heard in other parts of the country. I know that on Prince Edward Island the representatives on the committee have made the comments before.

Wharves in P.E.I. have to have periodic dredging, because it's mostly sand in their facilities around there. Sand moves rather quickly through water as tidal currents increase and wind increases, and you get a big storm surge and so on. Storm surges are higher than they ever used to be around the areas, and therefore, you're getting more erosion around the beaches. As that happens, you get more sedimentation within the harbours.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

That's the only proof of the sedimentation being from climate change.

It's a distinct statement here. I'm just looking for the backup behind it.

[Tim Wentzell]

We've had presentations at the national level on the worsening effect of climate change on the facilities and how they're going to be maintained in the future.

When you build a facility now—anything, new repairs or new structures—they build what they call a hundred-year structure that would withstand a hundred-year storm. Once every hundred years, you'd get a storm that severe. They do notice that the magnitude of those storms is more frequent than they used to be.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

I'm certainly not denying that climate change is happening. I'm just looking for the evidence that is affecting the sedimentation.

Another question I have is regarding icebreaking operations. We hear the icebreakers are often up and down through the gulf opening up the sea ice, the winter ice, early. The icebreakers are also going into the ports and opening up the ports, freeing them of the winter ice that has built up.

Do you believe that those activities could be adding to the climate change effect by breaking up that ice earlier, allowing a lot more sunlight to penetrate the water?

[Tim Wentzell]

This is a time I wish my colleague Osborne were here because he's from the gulf, in Cape Breton, so he knows a lot more about the ice factor than I do. To be honest, I don't know much about the ice factor. I just know that I've heard the comment from people in different harbours in their area that the less ice protection in the wintertime has left the wharves more exposed to the frequent storms and tidal action in the wintertime, instead of just having the ice there for protection.

As the ice decreases.... I can't say it's tied to the icebreakers, as such. I do know that it's been mentioned that the lack of ice coverage in the gulf has left a lot of the facilities more exposed to the climate and the weather conditions.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair]

Thank you, Mr. Arnold.

Before I go back to the government side for five minutes, I would ask committee's approval of the budget for M-154 so that we can get our witnesses reimbursed for their expenses. I don't want to run out of time. It will be another two weeks before we can get this through if we don't deal with it now.

Now that everybody has a copy, can we go ahead and approve this amount?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair]

Thank you.

Now back to the government side, to Mr. Finnigan for five minutes or less, please.

[Pat Finnigan, Liberal, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

Thank you for being here by the way.

We talked about the size being a factor. We've done a tour on the Atlantic coast and in almost every harbour, there are bigger boats, and like you said, square rigs, and they're taking a lot of the space.

It's one of the major issues, and I'm not suggesting anything but I just want to know. The small boat pays the same fee as the large boat. Have you ever looked at that side of it? Should the larger boat pay a higher fee? I'm just curious to hear your knowledge on that. Thank you.

[Tim Wentzell]

Each harbour authority, in their guidelines, sets their own fee structure depending on the harbour authority and what's going on in their facility. I do know that a lot of the larger vessels do pay more but it's not a uniform approach. One size doesn't fit all. Each harbour sets up their own individual fee structure in accordance with their own needs.

I can't say that it's one fee, but I know the larger ones do pay more, as an overall picture.

[Pat Finnigan, Liberal, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

I know we've been divesting of a lot of harbours because at one point every small community had a harbour.

What about even more concentration? Would that provide a lot more resources? Could you do a lot more with probably less money?

Again, I'm just asking. I'm not suggesting anything, but if you had a super-harbour where we would concentrate more into large harbours.... People might have to drive a hundred miles, but a lot of people drive to work an hour every day. I'm just asking if that has been looked at.

[Tim Wentzell]

There have been different harbours that have amalgamated issues around the area. They've incorporated six harbours to make one harbour authority, and they actually got rid of a facility that was one of the divestitures in the program. I do know of that issue, but a lot of these communities....

You talk about driving an hour to work. A lot of these wharves are in remote communities, and you have fishing gear to take. You just don't hop on the boat and go. You may not have property in the vicinity to store your fishing equipment and so on. You have to get to that wharf, and you can't just load it on a vehicle and travel that distance to get to the sea because you're dealing with weather conditions and so on. You don't know when you're going to be able to go for sure. Our weather is very unpredictable.

[Pat Finnigan, Liberal, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

I'm from the northeast of New Brunswick. Not only with this government, but I know that there are needs everywhere and sometimes I'm sure politics can make a difference to where the money is allocated. For instance, this fall I had one harbour that was on the list, but the funding went to Nova Scotia. I have nothing against Nova Scotia. I'm sure it happens the other way around.

If this is how we sometimes allocate resources, we know there's something wrong with this picture. It's not only this government. I'm sure it's happened.

What's your experience with that? Could you comment on that? I know that maybe you're not in a good position to do so, but I'd just like to hear what you're seeing and whether it is an issue.