Fisheries Committee on May 10th, 2016

[Kevin Stringer]

We would generally say it's a similar approach, maybe not as severe in the Pacific. The one thing I'd note on the comparison on the Pacific—Gérald pointed to the different life processes—is they spawn more than once. That's enormously different, but the really striking thing is, during the 1970s when these were at their positive peak in numbers as far as we know going back, there were two million fish, and you know your average run of sockeye up the Fraser River is more than that, so it is quite remarkably different in terms of the number of fish that you're starting with. Declines may be similar, but there is a different circumstance.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

In its report, the advisory committee on Atlantic salmon presented 61 recommendations to DFO. How does the department plan on implementing all of these recommendations? I would also add, how much investment would DFO need to implement all of the recommendations?

[Kevin Stringer]

I'll take that on.

I said earlier that we generally see this as a program of work that actually provides some guidance about focus, priority, etc. There's very little in here that we were not working on before,

In terms of how much it would cost, it would be a matter of how far, how fast. It really does speak to more science on this, more enforcement on that, these types of things, so it isn't saying you should have $730,000 into this program. It's difficult to say that.

We are planning to come out with a specific response to the committee's report, but I can say, generally, the program of work they have outlined has been enormously helpful to the department, and it's something we've been proceeding on.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

When do you think you'll be coming out with that?

[Kevin Stringer]

I'll say soon.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

This year?

[Kevin Stringer]

I'll say yes.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Okay, that gives us an idea. Thanks.

What's the current DFO budget devoted to wild Atlantic salmon science and management?

[Kevin Stringer]

It's a very difficult thing to do. I'll give you a number, but I am also going to preface it with this: how much of my time gets spent on Atlantic salmon, how much of a conservation and protection officer's time gets spent on Atlantic salmon when they're out doing a patrol is really difficult to say. From time to time, we have done a review of it. It may change after what we've seen in the budget, but most recent estimates from a few years ago are in the range of $12 million to $15 million.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

The discussion on ocean conditions, I think, is really important. I think that's shared on both coasts, and probably the Arctic as well, in terms of the fisheries. Do we need an increase in focus and resources for science, to look at that question of ocean science?

[Trevor Swerdfager]

Yes.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

I would say, from what I've read, that there has been a decrease over the last 10 years or so. I have a note here from the Atlantic Salmon Federation, Mr. Charles Cusson, that in his testimony to the committee last year he indicated that from 1985 to 2009, DFO’s budget decreased by 75% relative to inflation; the actual amounts fell from $24 million to $12 million.

I hear what you're saying, yes, then I'm also interested.... Obviously, we need to resource up, but what are the issues specific to ocean management, ocean conditions, that we need to go after? Where would it be most efficient to put those resources?

[Trevor Swerdfager]

There are a couple of things. The reason I answered yes so quickly is that it's clear we need further investigation into this issue. That's just indisputable. When I say “we”, it's not just the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, it's the ocean science community more broadly.

We know quite clearly that changing ocean conditions are significant. We know they are widespread, and we suspect strongly that they're affecting biological productivity of the oceans. Can we prove that categorically in a sort of linear relationship? Not yet.

A big part of our energy around the physical oceanography, chemical oceanography side of things, is trying to understand more effectively what changes are occurring in pH, temperature, salinity, currents, tides, those sorts of things. We know they're changing. We need to monitor them over a period of time.

Our investments are, and will continue to be, very much focused on understanding those trends, then figuring out how we link that back to an issue like Atlantic salmon.

One school of thought is that a major source of challenge for Atlantic salmon is that when these animals do go to sea, there are factors at play there that are causing them to either simply die and not return at all, or return in a poorer state of health, a poorer level of fitness, and so on. Can we prove that? No, we can't.

A big part of our focus, though, in our ongoing research is going to be to target that. While some people might see fish biology as the prime source of science priority, a big part of our emphasis is going to be on understanding the systems the fish swim in to try to figure out how that is affecting them, and tracing that back to population.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

The bell says you're done. I apologize for the disturbance.

Mr. McDonald, for seven minutes.

[Ken McDonald, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

I thought the bell was for time to wake up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

That was more for me, Mr. McDonald.

[Ken McDonald, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for appearing. Some of you have been here before. We really appreciate you showing up.

Mr. Sopuck mentioned the seal population and its effect on salmon. The indication I got was that we really don't have the science to prove that they're a big predator on salmon, but they are a big predator on just about everything else, so I don't know why there wouldn't be a predation effect on the salmon.

To give you an example from my own riding, about a month or a month and a half ago, I happened to be driving past the actual mouth of a well-known salmon river in Salmonier in St. Mary's Bay, and two seals were there at the mouth of the river. I mean, they're not there for the nature of just being there. They're there for food. That's in an area that I'm very familiar with. My family comes from there. Years ago, you would never see seals in that area. It was unknown for a seal to be in that area, but now it's common to see seals there.

Obviously, to me, they are having an effect on the salmon population and other populations, but it seems that nobody will admit that they're a big problem for anything, because nobody wants to bite the bullet and actually say that we need a cull on seals. They're out there in the millions, but yet I think the take this year, or the quota, is somewhere around 400,000 to 425,000. That doesn't touch it. Nowhere near that gets taken, because there's no real value in it right now with the price of pelts and everything else.

When is DFO or the government going to take an aggressive approach to actually doing something about the seal population?

[Kevin Stringer]

I'll start. If anybody wants to weigh in, go ahead.

I think we'll acknowledge that they're not eating Volkswagens, as a former deputy once said.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Kevin Stringer]

The very specific relationship that has been shown is with southern Gulf cod. Science has determined that there actually is a clear relationship in terms of inhibiting the recovery of cod. If we're not seeing it that much in terms of salmon, there just aren't that many salmon to eat, right? We do know that they are eating fish.

I would say a couple of things. I will repeat what I said before. We continue to monitor. We continue to be concerned. We continue to establish harvest levels. But we also continue to work on the market, and we are hopeful that we are able to better establish.... We have funding in that to support groups to do it. The minister is constantly talking to other governments and going to fish expositions, seeking to develop a seal market.

There was a reasonable seal market. We had good numbers in terms of the seal harvest a number of years ago, not so much with grey seals, but certainly with harp seals. We had in the number of 400,000 a year. There were those types of numbers. It has dwindled significantly. Grey seals are a significant problem in the Gulf of St. Lawrence—no question. Part of the solution is to develop a harvest. We've actually approved some interesting types of harvest, but they're small-scale types.

We do continue to look at it, and we do continue to be concerned about it, but in terms of having a big plan for the short term, it's not there right now, and I'll tell you that.

[Ken McDonald, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

We also mentioned illegal fishing as one of the problems. What is the extent of illegal wild salmon fishing in eastern Canada? Do you have any idea?

[Kevin Stringer]

Yes. In terms of enforcement, we do a lot of enforcement on it in Atlantic Canada, and certainly, one of the committee's recommendations was that we should be doing more and looking at guardians and partnering with local groups. That is something we will look at. We do it more in Newfoundland and Labrador, for some reason, than we do elsewhere, and they've suggested that we pick that up.

We do have a total of 61,000 hours that the various regions spend on looking at 6,000 fishers and 20,000 fishery sites. Do we actually know how much is being taken with that many fishers out there? The answer is no, but we do actually have to do an estimate in terms of unreported fishing to NASCO, the North Atlantic Salmon Conservation Organization. Canada, Scotland, and Norway, etc., are members of that.

We do an estimate. On the estimate of unreported harvests, they were, we estimated, 24 tonnes in 2013 and 21 tonnes in 2014. That's an estimate in terms of unreported, but it is very much an estimate, based on what our conservation and protection officers see.

[Ken McDonald, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

In one of the graphs you showed in the deck you presented to us, the only one that has increased the taking of the larger salmon in any big way is Greenland.

What are we doing to talk to them and educate them about what it is doing to the stock?

[Kevin Stringer]

Yes, indeed. Greenland used to have a significant harvest years ago, and they stopped it. Then they started it, three or four years ago, and you will see that, as you point out, on that graph.

We have struggled, bit by bit, with the recreational community, with the aboriginal communities, and with others. You can see that graph coming down a little bit, and then all of a sudden the Greenland one goes up. That was disappointing.

They established what they call a factory harvest, which allows sale locally. Not only we, but the U.S. and others in the international community who are on NASCO, expressed concern.

We achieved something last summer—we will see what the results are—in terms of, effectively, getting a management regime, reporting, and a number of measures in place. Our minister has spoken to them, and the U.S. has spoken to them. We have worked on it together, and we will continue to pressure Greenland to bring its numbers down. They know the concern.