Fisheries Committee on Nov. 22nd, 2018

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

I have two questions.

First, I would like to see that once we set a 10-year plan, we focus on whether or not the government is achieving it. I appreciate your comments that the funding has helped. Sure, it's helped; it's getting better and we're three-quarters of the way to improving some of those facilities.

What about all the facilities? It is a difficult challenge. It's a big country, and 1,000 harbours are a big commitment. However, to keep governments on track over the years, over decades really, I think we need a measurement to come back and say that we're halfway through this 10-year plan. Maybe that's a recommendation this committee could put forward.

There is also the changing nature of divestiture. In some core harbours, local arrangements are made with either first nations or municipalities. We certainly heard from municipalities and some nations that it's difficult to assume these assets without enough funding or training to be able to keep up with the demands that the government is facing.

[The Chair]

Thank you, Mr. Donnelly. We're way over time.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Okay. I'll keep going in the next round.

[The Chair]

We'll now go back to the government side. We have Mr. Fraser for seven minutes or less, please.

[Colin Fraser, West Nova, Lib.]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to both our guests today for being here and sharing their thoughts.

In your presentation, I noticed that you talked about an increase from 2011 to 2018 in the percentage of small craft harbours that are now considered in the fair or better category, an increase from 73% to 87% during that period of time.

Can you help me understand how that determination is made, of whether a small craft harbour is in fair or better condition? If a document exists to define these things, can you provide it to the committee?

[Denise Frenette]

In terms of how we do it, our engineers inspect the facilities. Then they assess the state of the facilities and categorize their condition.

It's an approach where each of the facilities at the harbour is assessed, and then there's an overall ranking of the conditions of the harbour. In other words, you might have a harbour where some facilities are in good condition, but maybe a wharf is in a worse condition. It's an overall assessment of the harbours.

[Colin Fraser]

Is there a protocol or a policy in place to follow with regard to how that determination is made?

[Denise Frenette]

There is a definition on how to rank the quality of the assets.

[Colin Fraser]

Would you be able to provide the committee with that information ?

[Denise Frenette]

Yes.

[Colin Fraser]

Thank you.

At the same time that the percentage of small craft harbours in fair or better condition has increased, from 2011 to 2018, you say there has been no increase in the A-base funding. I assume that it's because of the one-time B-base funding increases that those improvements could be made.

Is that fair to say?

[Denise Frenette]

It's a combination of both, but it's primarily because of the B-base.

[Colin Fraser]

At the same time when those improvements to the state of repair have been made, we've seen huge challenges of increasing boat sizes, especially where I'm from, southwestern Nova Scotia, because of how well the fishery is doing.

Is it fair to assume that if we've been dealing with the state of repair of certain wharves and improving them, we haven't necessarily been able to keep up with the capacity issues of some wharves that may be in a good state of repair but don't have enough room?

[Sylvie Lapointe]

There are definitely a lot of overcrowding issues that we haven't been able to address.

[Colin Fraser]

I want to ask you about the issue of dredging. My understanding is that basically the small craft harbour budget, in total, is for wharves and breakwaters, keeping things in a good state of repair, dealing with capacity, but also dealing with dredging.

From your perspective, would it make any sense at all to have a different way of approaching that, with regard to dredging, since that can be different from a capital project?

[Sylvie Lapointe]

The dredging costs have definitely been increasing. I think they were about $8.6 million last year. As I said, with the larger boats and the climate change effects that we're seeing, we're having to deal with a lot more unpredictable and emergency dredging situations. We're trying to work with the harbour authorities to better predict where we might get those types of instances and bring on board available contractors whom we can bring in very quickly on an emergency basis, but certainly your idea of having a separate envelope of funding is very interesting.

[Colin Fraser]

When you talk about emergency situations, in Atlantic Canada in particular there are only a couple of companies, I think, that do the dredging work. If one company is working on a project that may be taking all summer, leading up to the next fishing season or whatever the case may be, and they have to leave to go fix an emergency situation, it means that this job may not be done before the fishing season, and therefore it's put on the shelf for a little while, and then maybe there are other obligations.

Do you see an issue with the lack of contractors or companies that do the dredging work in order to fulfill the mandate of the small craft harbours for dredging?

[Denise Frenette]

It's true that there is limited capacity to do the dredging, but I haven't come across too many examples where we have run into situations with the contractor per se. It's more a challenge from the financial perspective to address the urgencies that pop up that weren't planned.

[Colin Fraser]

At the same time that other pressures have increased on the small craft harbours budget, with respect to dredging in and of itself, has there been an increase in the cost of getting environmental assessments done and the requirements and obligations on small craft harbours to deal with the material that's being dredged to be hauled away, for example?

Those increased costs mean that you can do less with the money you have. Is that right?

[Sylvie Lapointe]

You're right, and we do have some challenges there with waste disposal, in particular land-based disposal, where provinces such as Nova Scotia have enacted stricter regulations. That is an additional challenge for us as well.

[Colin Fraser]

You mentioned how climate change impacts the dredging aspect and increases the need for dredging when you have more fill. Currents are changing, and the water temperature affects all of these things due to climate change.

Can you talk a little bit about how you see that impacting the amount of dredging that needs to be done on a yearly basis?

[Denise Frenette]

We've looked at predicting how much the dredging costs could increase. We are seeing a move. As Sylvie mentioned, it costs us $8.6 million, but we're predicting that this will move up to $21 million, so we are looking at projecting the requirements for dredging costs, and it is increasing.

[Colin Fraser]

Thank you.

I suspect that is my time. Thanks.

[The Chair]

You were right on the button. Thank you, Mr. Fraser.

Now we go back to the Conservative side, with Mr. Doherty for five minutes or less.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Thank you.

Thank you to our guests.

Our colleague Mr. Donnelly asked a question regarding the state of disrepair or repair. I think the answer was that, from 2013 until today, there is no data. Is that correct? There was a comment that was made, and I just want to give you an opportunity to—