Evidence of meeting #130 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was licence.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
Right, which is why in the testimony last week, the officials said that this is a way they can manage the fleet, the number of boats that are out, correct?
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
Okay.
Mr. Edwards, Mr. MacKay and Ms. Thorkelson, does everybody agree with that?
4:35 p.m.
President, United Fishermen and Allied Workers' Union – Unifor
Well, no. Actually, it's the transferability that's the issue. You can certainly have a stock of fish. It's a management tool in the integrated groundfish fishery, but there are other ways. Once you have decided to divide your fish into quotas and transfer them, you have to look at other transfer mechanisms—perhaps a fair sharing, perhaps just among fishermen. Fishermen have come up with lots of alternatives to the money-based ITQ transfer system that's in place now.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
Who holds the balance of power, outside the fisheries, obviously, in this system? Is it the processor? Is it the vessel owner? Is it the fisherman?
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
4:35 p.m.
Fisher, As an Individual
Yes. It's the quota holder who has the ultimate power here. They hold the ability to hold the fish.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
In the testimony last week, we heard that in order to hold a quota, you also had to have a fishing licence. Are there real-world examples that you guys know of, that a group, an organization, a business or an individual holds a quota, but is not fishing, and does not hold a fishing licence?
Go ahead, Mr. Edwards.
4:35 p.m.
Fisher, As an Individual
Yes, there's just been an analysis done on that. There are 435 halibut licences, just as an example; only 140-some-odd vessels fished last year. There are a lot of these empty licences. They only have about 0.01% of the quota on them. They're now being used as quota transfer licences, a lot of times by the corporations or the processors. They hold the licence and pass the quota through it.
I don't totally agree that the transfer mechanism is the problem. I think it's the ownership that's the problem. If you had an owner-operator, and only fishermen were the ones who held the quotas, it would be a much different story. We could still transfer to make sure that our business was viable. We need that in the groundfish fishery, but we need to get rid of the absentee owner system.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
Okay. Perhaps I'll reword my question. Are you aware of anyone holding a quota who doesn't have a fishing licence?
Modestus.
4:40 p.m.
Fisher, As an Individual
Yes, there are a lot of individuals and corporations that hold quotas and are not actively fishing them. In the last two years, with the groundfish development authority that I sit on, we've heard rumours of significant foreign capital coming in to purchase quota structure, and that quota is now being held by offshore interests. They are not actively fishing. They, in turn, are leasing those back to corporations fishing here that have licences to fish that on.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
They're the holders of the quotas. They own the quotas, these offshore groups—
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
4:40 p.m.
Fisher, As an Individual
No. You can hold quota and not be a Canadian citizen, but to actually fish, you do need to be a Canadian citizen.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
Okay, but last week we were told by Mr. Thomson, one of the officials, that in order to hold quota, you must hold a fishing licence. I'm asking for clarification.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
4:40 p.m.
Fisher, As an Individual
There can be trust agreements behind licensing. However, this is why I think a registry would be of great help, for transparency. People would understand what would go on, and it would help banks and other lending institutions, possibly.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
Yes, that would allow you to say you have something of value. You'd be able to go and finance your operations from that, or—
4:40 p.m.
Fisher, As an Individual
Also, it's transparent, so people would understand what it was.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
Okay.
Getting back to the comment from the officials who were here last week, Mr. Edwards, I agree 100%.
Would you say that the testimony from last week was incorrect in that you must have a licence to hold quota? We know of others who don't have a licence and they hold quota.
4:40 p.m.
Fisher, As an Individual
You have to have a licence, but the question is who owns the licence. Where's the money coming from? It could be a shell company, and there's no real tracking of that. You have to attach the licence to a quota, but that doesn't really tell you much. It doesn't tell you who actually owns it.
4:40 p.m.
Fisher, As an Individual
For instance, I own quota that is not on my specific licence—