Evidence of meeting #130 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was licence.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Chair  Mr. Ken McDonald (Avalon, Lib.)
Modestus Nobels  Fisher, As an Individual
David MacKay  Fisher, As an Individual
Joy Thorkelson  President, United Fishermen and Allied Workers' Union – Unifor
Dan Edwards  Fisher, As an Individual
Peter de Greef  Fisher, As an Individual
Colin Fraser  West Nova, Lib.
Duncan Cameron  Fisher, As an Individual
Fraser MacDonald  Fisher, As an Individual
Ross Antilla  Fisher, As an Individual
Jennifer Silver  Associate Professor, University of Guelph, As an Individual

February 5th, 2019 / 5:35 p.m.

Ross Antilla Fisher, As an Individual

Hi, I'm Ross Antilla. I'm from Pender Harbour, and I'm a fourth-generation fish harvester.

I'd like to bring your attention to licence marriages and the negative impact they have on all fish harvesters.

Licence marriages make licences more difficult to buy and sell, because you have to buy or sell them as a block of licences. It is difficult to try to purchase a single licence, and most times you have to buy the licence you want with a separate unwanted licence attached to it. This pushes the cost of the licence you are trying to purchase out of reach for most young fish harvesters, which forces them to lease from someone else. Even if you own a licence and you want to expand and grow your business and buy another, most likely the other licence will marry to your existing licence and it will be irreversible.

I truly hope the committee will review the policy on licence marriages and allow them to be divorced to make it easier for fish harvesters to be able to afford to buy the licence they want, without others attached as a block, and to help us avoid leasing a licence from someone else.

Leasing is the second point I would like to bring to the committee's attention, and how it has changed to the state it is currently in.

Leasing started out as a way for people to cover their own catches that they had gone over on and borrow from someone else who still had remaining quota to catch, and it was cheap and affordable. Leasing nowadays exploits a fish harvester's primary source of income to benefit the licence-holder's investment portfolio.

Using the halibut fishery as an example, licence-holders make 80% of the profits of fishing while the fish harvester has to use 20% to pay all expenses, including licence fees, camera fees and crew, and somehow after all that, make a living.

Most of the time the company holds the quota, which means you are forced to sell to them at their prices, deliver to their specific ports and fish the areas they want you to fish, which is effectively taking away your freedom as a fisher. If you don't fish their quota, you might not get to fish at all next year.

Most members on the fishery advisory boards to DFO are licence-holders, and as such have made decisions in the best interests of licence-holders. This has created a slave-like environment for young fish harvesters in the industry.

I would advise the committee to review the licensing policy of the west coast fisheries and alter leasing for the benefit of our endangered coastal fishing communities.

Thank you.

5:40 p.m.

Mr. Ken McDonald (Avalon, Lib.)

The Chair

Thank you, Mr. Antilla.

Now we'll go to Dr. Silver, for seven minutes or less, please.

5:40 p.m.

Dr. Jennifer Silver Associate Professor, University of Guelph, As an Individual

Thank you for the invitation to be here today and for the opportunity to speak to you about west coast fisheries. Also, thank you to my co-panellists and the panellists earlier. It's really a delight to be speaking among so many fish harvesters.

I have been researching fisheries, aquaculture and coastal communities in British Columbia for 14 years, and I've been studying commercial fisheries licensing for the last two, specifically. This work informs the remarks I am going to make today. I have divided the remarks into three main points and then three takeaways for your study.

The first main point is that, as you've been hearing, the total number of licences and the total amount of quota for all major Canadian Pacific fisheries are limited. For all major fisheries, they can be exchanged among holders through market transaction.

What this means in practice is that fish harvesting operations can register and hold numerous licences. In turn, they can participate in a range of fisheries or earn revenue by leasing out some or all of their licences and quota. Conversely, there are those that hold a single licence, a small number of licences or none at all that are access constrained. Their choices are to fish part-time or to lease additional licences and/or quota.

Licences and quota are very expensive. Estimates produced for DFO suggest as of 2016 that licences sell for tens of thousands of dollars—for example, the AG licence for salmon is over $64,000—to hundreds of thousands of dollars—for example, the W licence for prawn is over $770,000. One type, the G licence for geoduck, is estimated to exchange at $6.1 million.

My current research has counted exactly how many licences and licence-holders there were in the 2017 calendar year. We have found that there were 6,563 Canadian Pacific commercial fishing licences and 2,377 unique licence-holders. There are more licences than holders, and as I bet you would guess at this stage, distribution is not even. Our research shows that there were 38 licence-holders who registered 20 or more commercial licences. Of these 38, there were six that registered more than 50 licences. Conversely, there were 1,357 licence-holders that registered only one licence and 499 that registered two.

Mine is the first study that I'm aware of to look at licence holdings across all fisheries. It builds on a couple of other studies that have looked into the distribution of licences in salmon and herring, specifically. This is a body of growing research that shows a large number of access-constrained harvesters in the west coast fisheries. You have heard first-hand today and in previous meetings about the conditions they face and about the economic constraints related to leasing from those with larger licence and quota portfolios.

The second main point is that in the global context, transnational firms and investors show interest in securing licences and quota and investing in or taking over fishing companies. A recent study by Swedish researchers found that 13 corporations control 11% to 16% of the global marine catch and 19% to 40% of the largest and most valuable stocks.

ln the Canadian context, anecdotal reports—some which we've heard today—and recent investigative journalism suggest that there have been instances of foreign investors buying or providing loans for licences, quota and/or vessels in B.C. In my research, I have been looking for evidence of foreign investment in west coast fisheries. I've been searching mainly publicly available information, media reports and the Transport Canada vessel registry. Being confined to publicly available information makes it very challenging to discern the extent to which this may be occurring in Canadian Pacific fisheries, and indeed, to predict what may happen in the future. Given that Canada's fish stocks are a public resource, I would argue that monitoring foreign and speculative investment is crucial to transparency and falls within the purview of fisheries management.

The third main point is that Pacific licence holdings, leasing arrangements and other types of economic arrangements related to licences and quota are not monitored or systematically reported and are not currently considered in fisheries evaluation.

This is noteworthy in the context of your west coast study. Policy in the Atlantic region regulates against leasing, loans and other economic relationships in some fisheries between inshore licence-holders and processors or other investors. Sometimes you will hear these referred to as controlling agreements; under some conditions, they are not permitted or they're tightly regulated.

You may also wish to note that the licence-holder identification data that I've used in my study to count west coast licences and licence holdings did come from a publicly available spreadsheet maintained by DFO Pacific. While it can be freely downloaded, this spreadsheet is hundreds of thousands of rows long. The process that we used to count licence-holders across types involved developing computer code that automatically extracted and matched identifying information. Put simply, the basic information is available but unless you have two years and are willing to learn computer code, it's not highly accessible in a general sense.

These points lead me to suggest that while DFO Pacific is making strides on fisheries science becoming more transparent and oriented toward ecosystem dimensions, comparable efforts are needed to make allocation and fisheries evaluation similarly transparent and oriented to human dimensions.

Now I'd like to offer three takeaways for your study. I have chosen these with special attention to your stated interest in "evaluating the distribution of economic benefits generated by the industry and the aspirations of fishers and their communities".

The first key takeaway is that the concern expressed by independent harvesters, new entrants and next generation harvesters about their future in Pacific fisheries is unquestionably tied to the limited availability and high cost of key licences and quota. To put this into perspective once again, consider estimates that put the aggregate market value of all licence holdings across fisheries in 2016 at just over $956 million and the aggregate market value of quota at just over $1.1 billion. The impressive nature of these figures and daunting questions about whether access rights to a public resource should be commoditized to such a degree and exchanged through market transactions that are largely unregulated at this point in time are, in my opinion, at the crux of your study.

The second key takeaway is that, given the lucrative value of licences and quota, the federal government should not ignore the potential for foreign and speculative investment in fisheries off of all three of our coasts. Questions about how and under what conditions, if it's going to be permitted at all, and the ways it should be reported and monitored are especially crucial. DFO should be tracking leasing, sales and other transactions because, as I mentioned earlier, this is a highly valuable public resource.

The third takeaway is that there are programs and policy options that could be tailored for the west coast, as we have been discussing. There are programs that have been pursued elsewhere, such as licence and quota banks and youth permits that could be developed to support and expand access for independent harvesters, new entrants and young harvesters. Moreover, there are policy options that have been pursued elsewhere, such as fleet separation requirements and mandatory reporting of leasing and controlling agreements that would improve transparency and could be monitored and evaluated in pursuit of social and local economic objectives in Pacific fisheries.

To conclude, I'd like to thank you again for the invitation to be here. I really want to congratulate you for this study. It is an important time in the west coast fisheries, and careful attention to licensing and quota can help to better balance objectives for what is a very important public resource.

5:45 p.m.

Mr. Ken McDonald (Avalon, Lib.)

The Chair

Thank you.

We'll move on now to the questioning.

First, of course, I welcome the Honourable Kent Hehr here to committee today. He's subbing in for Mr. Rogers, who has another appointment to go to.

Welcome, sir. Hopefully we can teach you something about the fisheries while you're here.

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

Kent Hehr Liberal Calgary Centre, AB

I think that's wonderful, Ken. Thank you.

5:45 p.m.

Mr. Ken McDonald (Avalon, Lib.)

The Chair

For seven minutes or less, from the government side, we have Mr. Finnigan, please.

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

Pat Finnigan Liberal Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to all of you for being here. I would also like to thank Mr. Hardie for bringing this to our attention. It really opened our eyes. I'm from the east coast, and I thought our fishery was complicated. When I hear how everything is taking place on the west coast, I'd rather go back to the east coast and hear from fishers there, but I'm really happy to hear what you guys have to say.

I'm hearing from different independent fishers about the issues, about financing, about leasing or getting a boat to go fish and not knowing if you have a contract. The advisory committee and subcommittees have been established to provide advice to DFO on the management of groundfish fisheries, including the halibut advisory board, the groundfish trawl advisory committee, the sablefish advisory committee, the groundfish hook and line subcommittee, the commercial industry caucus and the groundfish integrated advisory board.

Do active independent fishers feel they have a voice on those committees, and do they listen to you? Do they take you seriously?

I would ask any of you independent fishers what your thoughts are on that.

5:45 p.m.

Fisher, As an Individual

Fraser MacDonald

I'll start by saying something quickly.

I think for the most part you can only get on one of those boards and be a voting member if you own a licence. The vast majority of people who are active fishers on our coast are hired skippers who run boats for owners or they're someone like me who owns a boat but leases the licence. You don't really get a voice on the advisory committees unless you own a licence. Then you can be a member.

I very recently started to get involved in that with tuna because technically my boat has a registered licence on it now, so I'm just going to these advisory boards and letting myself in to participate.

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

Pat Finnigan Liberal Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB

Are there any other comments or is it pretty much the same?

5:50 p.m.

Fisher, As an Individual

Duncan Cameron

I sit as a director on the B.C. Crab Fisherman Association. I've been a proxy rep for the crab advisory for five years. The principle of owning a licence to have a vested interest worked very well in the beginning; it has just evolved poorly as fewer and fewer fishermen are licence-holders. Now we're really stepping into that area where people not fishing have the advisory boards. In the beginning, it was a good policy to have vested interest there. Now we haven't had any regulation as that has evolved.

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

Pat Finnigan Liberal Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB

Maybe that can lead into my second question. On January 30, a DFO official mentioned to the committee that the department was supportive of implementing changes to the current fisheries management regime where it is supported by a clear majority of participants.

That's what I would like you to define. Who are the participants? Is it people who own the licence? It's not defined here who the participants would be that could influence or bring about changes. Would you define participants again, Mr. MacDonald?

5:50 p.m.

Fisher, As an Individual

Fraser MacDonald

As far as participants go, in the broader sense it would be quota owners, boat owners and active fishermen. We all participate in the industry in a roundabout way.

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

Pat Finnigan Liberal Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB

Are your comments or suggestions taken up by DFO when it consults?

5:50 p.m.

Fisher, As an Individual

Fraser MacDonald

DFO has multiple levels, so the advisory board is generally.... From my experience with the tuna advisory board, we take our concerns to our fisheries manager, but I'm not totally aware whether that fisheries manager has any real pull higher up the chain in the Pacific region. I couldn't speak to it.

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

Pat Finnigan Liberal Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB

Dr. Silver, you talked about the price of licensing going up over the years, but in a normal market situation, wouldn't the price be determined by the actual worth of the licence? In other words, if you pay $100,000 for a licence, shouldn't market force, if no other forces are acting on it, determine what you should pay and make a living by financing that?

5:50 p.m.

Associate Professor, University of Guelph, As an Individual

Dr. Jennifer Silver

Yes, and this speaks to the issue of the separation from licence ownership, and in many cases the separation of that from actual harvesting. The costs of harvesting aren't necessarily being borne by those who own the licence.

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

Pat Finnigan Liberal Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB

Is there parked money there by investors not into fishing, but either outside or local people who are parking money in speculative ways? Could that have driven up the price of the licence?

5:50 p.m.

Associate Professor, University of Guelph, As an Individual

Dr. Jennifer Silver

This is one of the challenges I've encountered in my research on trying to understand who are the investors. When you run into numbered companies, for example, in licence registries, it becomes very difficult for a researcher like me who is relying on publicly available information to determine who exactly those numbered companies are and then understand their motives and motivations, where the money they have to invest is coming from and those sorts of things.

We've heard stories, and again, there has been recent investigative journalism in The Globe and Mail which suggested that perhaps there is an element of foreign and speculative investment. That's due to the nature of public information versus private information. That's as far as I'm able to say definitively, but it is a topic that the committee should be pushing on or writing about in recommendations in terms of greater attention to the issue and monitoring. It's under the purview of fisheries management.

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

Pat Finnigan Liberal Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB

Would you make those investors public, or would you see regulations as to who can actually own a licence?

5:50 p.m.

Associate Professor, University of Guelph, As an Individual

Dr. Jennifer Silver

I think a first-off would be a publicly accessible registry of licences and quotas.

As I mentioned, there is this very large spreadsheet which DFO Pacific does make available. It has taken us a couple of years to understand it, and then to use it. I'm not a computer coder. I had to find a very specialized colleague who was able to help me with this to match identification across licences.

Something more accessible and useable than that would be very valuable as a starting point. If the minister, DFO and fisheries managers decide the market transaction piece is something they would and should be monitoring more, then that would be the vehicle you could use to do that, but the registry is the starting point.

5:55 p.m.

Mr. Ken McDonald (Avalon, Lib.)

The Chair

Thank you, Mr. Finnigan.

Mr. Arnold, you have seven minutes or less.

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the four of you for coming in and sitting through the first session and now being here for the second session.

Mr. Antilla or Mr. MacDonald, I should have kept better track of which one of you made the statement about processors determining basically when you fish, what you fish, where you fish and where you offload. Can you elaborate on that? I will give you some time, because I know your seven minutes to present may have kept you from elaborating a little further.

5:55 p.m.

Fisher, As an Individual

Ross Antilla

Well, if you lease a quota from somebody, you're expected to deliver the fish they attached to it. They pay you their price. It might not be the best price on the market. Normally, as a fisher, you want to get the highest price you can get.

As a fish harvester, you have to diversify into different fisheries. Through that company you usually loan.... You get a quota from elsewhere, also. You're locked into having to fish for them year after year, or you might not get a chance to fish.

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

I have a question for you. Is that part of the processors needing a consistent supply of product to keep the plants and their employees going on a consistent basis? Is that part of it? What are the other factors that you see in the stipulations they put around your harvesting fee?

5:55 p.m.

Fisher, As an Individual

Ross Antilla

Do you want to answer that?