Fisheries Committee on April 1st, 2019

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

We often hear that the department does not consult well. You made reference to “ongoing” consultation. Could you provide some evidence to the committee of how you consult with stakeholders?

[Serge Doucet]

On an annual basis, we have our recreational advisory tables that meet with stakeholders and indigenous communities throughout Atlantic Canada on all our recreational species. Again, in December of this year, I believe, we had our most recent recreational—

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

I know you say that you meet, but sometimes, from the criticism the committee gets, the stakeholders are given short notice and are not prepared to respond.

[Serge Doucet]

Again, I think it's published usually with at least a few weeks' notice for stakeholders to join. All stakeholders who are members of our stakeholder groups are always invited to attend. The results of the advisory committees are always posted online and are publicly available to everyone to be able to review what was discussed and debated. They always have the opportunity to ask questions afterwards as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Morrissey.

From the Conservative side we have Mr. Sopuck.

You have seven minutes or less, please.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Thanks.

I disagree very strongly with your view about striped bass predation. From the studies I've seen, there's about a 2% to 10% smolt survival out of the Miramichi, given that all the striped bass in the Gulf of St. Lawrence spawn there, versus 70% smolt survival out of the rest. These are Atlantic Salmon Federation numbers. Obviously, open ocean mortality is quite high, so I think your dismissing of predation of salmon smolts is unwarranted.

Regarding what happened in 2014, when then minister Keith Ashfield instituted a harvest of striped bass, the department was very much against what Minister Ashfield did. That's based on reports I've seen that said, for instance, “Despite resistance within his department, a limited striped bass fishing season was introduced”.

Given that Minister Ashfield introduced a harvest of striped bass at that time, did that harvest affect the striped bass population?

[Serge Doucet]

As we can tell by the continued increase in populations of striped bass from 2014 to 2018, we can see that the population kept increasing, even with continued increase in—how should I say—incremental access. From 2014—

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Okay. That's fine. I get the picture. We can conclude, then, that you gave the then minister bad advice.

Now, this is something I've been hearing right across as I travel across Atlantic Canada; for a prairie person, I've spent a fair bit of time out there. I've been on the fisheries committee for eight years, and this is a constant theme from your department: bad advice, studies all the time, no consultation and regulations that are promulgated way too late for the industry. Given your population estimate for the striped bass, what are your confidence limits for that population estimate?

[Serge Doucet]

Doug, can you...?

[Doug Bliss]

For the population estimate, as you can see from the graph that's displayed of the most current population, the average population estimate is 333,000. The confidence ranges from 154,000 to 623,000.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Okay. There are 154,000 to 600,000 fish. It's somewhere in there, so when the department says there are 300,000 fish, it's a very, very fuzzy number.

I want to talk about something quite different, but it's related to the survival of the Atlantic salmon. There's a time bomb on the Miramichi called the Miramichi Lake. The Miramichi Salmon Association and a number of groups have put forward a very sophisticated proposal to rotenone the smallmouth bass in that lake, which are clearly an invasive non-native species. That time bomb means that if the smallmouth bass enter the Miramichi, they will easily colonize the Miramichi, with dreadful mortality results for smolts.

Why are you holding back on the program to rotenone Miramichi Lake given that rotenone has been used in thousands of situations worldwide and is the most benign and safe fish toxicant that can ever be used?

[Serge Doucet]

Thank you for the question.

At this point in time, we're working with our proponents, the North Shore Micmac District Council, on a proposal exactly to that effect. Once we receive the proposal from the work group, we'll be able to—

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Working on that proposal is not good enough. That is a time bomb. What's holding the smallmouth bass back from the Miramichi, I've been told, is a rack or a net. If there's a major flood, look out.

In terms of our Atlantic salmon report that this committee did, I want to commend all members of this committee. It was a very comprehensive report, and it was universal. When I look at the minister's response to the report, given that it was probably written by the department.... We had a major recommendation, number 9, where we talked about “a recovery plan to rebuild” the “stocks to, at minimum, 1975 levels”. My colleague Mr. Arnold insisted on that, yet when I see the minister's response, the words “recovery” and “rebuild” do not appear. Why is that?

[Serge Doucet]

It's a good question.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Okay. That's fine. I don't have much time. You obviously don't know what the answer is. I'm not blaming you. The minister's signature is on this, not yours. I know where these kinds of things come from, and I think it's a travesty to not have “recovery” in there.

In terms of recommendation 14 from our report, we talked about the striped bass issue, but again, in the minister's letter, it was ignored. On invasive species, for example, we had a major recommendation about the issue of striped bass and smallmouth bass. It was mentioned in our report and unanimously supported. This report was done three years ago. The smallmouth bass issue was on the table then, yet nothing has been done. Why is that?

[Serge Doucet]

On the question of the smallmouth bass on the Miramichi Lake piece, again, we're working with the North Shore Micmac District Council on a proposed solution.

When it comes to recommendations 14 and 15 of this committee's report in 2017, both of those have been implemented. Since that report has been tabled, we've increased access to striped bass for a recreational perspective from a moderated level of one striped bass in the spring, one striped bass retention in the fall and two striped bass during the middle of the season to three striped bass for the entire period of the season. As well, with recommendation 15, which is to “investigate the opportunity for a First Nations striped bass commercial fishery”, in which we—

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Yes, I'm aware there was supposed to be a spring fishery for the first nations, but the licence didn't arrive until the middle of summer, after the fish had left.

I'm really surprised as well that the issue of seals wasn't brought up in the minister's letter. Recommendation 13 was unanimously supported by this committee to reduce the number of seals. I'd like to refer to a newspaper article in The Globe and Mail regarding a study that Peter Olesiuk of your department did. It talked about how three dozen seals killed 10,000 adult chum salmon in the fall spawning run. Granted, this was in B.C. In terms of fry, they can take up to 60 to 70 chum fry per minute.

In terms of Atlantic salmon, for example, a study in Scotland found that taking a single seal out of a river in Scotland increased the sport salmon catch by 17%, yet there was nothing mentioned about a seal harvest in the minister's letter. The department is running away from an increased seal harvest, in spite of the fact that most of the reports of the fisheries committees that I've been on—and I've been on them since 2010—have strongly and unanimously recommended an increased seal harvest.

Why are you so adamant in your opposition to an increased seal harvest when the data are there to prove that will work?

[Serge Doucet]

Doug.

[Doug Bliss]

We understand that an Atlantic seal advisory committee has been established to look at this question.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Sopuck.

Now on to the NDP. Mr. Johns, you have seven minutes or less, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Bliss and Mr. Doucet, for your testimony. It's greatly appreciated.

I'll just start with a couple of questions. We've seen huge fluctuations in numbers of striped bass in the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence. In your view, what has led to the fluctuations in the striped bass population? Is there a risk to the health of the ecosystem, caused by the fluctuating striped bass population?

Maybe Mr. Bliss can answer that.

[Doug Bliss]

Yes, I can tackle that.

A couple of things are clear. The question about warming waters and climate change came up. A lot of this is mixed in with the fact that the entire ecosystem is changing because of global change. The warming temperatures that we see—not only in the ocean, but in the river itself—favour the development of striped bass.

At the same time, we see other diadromous species such as as smelt and gaspereau having trouble in the Miramichi River. What we're seeing is that the ecosystem is changing—not only in the Miramichi, but in many of our rivers. Because we've never seen these kinds of changes before, it's a continual challenge to try to keep up to try to understand where the end point is or could be in terms of the ecosystem changes.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Yes. You said you have a hundred staff working in the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence doing assessments and monitoring. Is that enough? Do you believe the data are accurate in predicting the annual population change? It seems that hasn't been the case.

[Serge Doucet]

The hundred staff are for enforcement in the gulf region. That's the enforcement side. It's not the science and—