Evidence of meeting #137 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was river.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Serge Doucet  Regional Director General, Gulf Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Doug Bliss  Regional Director, Science, Gulf Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Bill Taylor  President and Chief Executive Officer, Atlantic Salmon Federation
George Ginnish  Chief Executive Officer, North Shore Mi’gmaq District Council, Eel Ground First Nation
Mark Hambrook  President, Miramichi Salmon Association Inc.
Deborah Norton  President, Miramichi Watershed Management Committee Inc.
John Pugh  President, New Brunswick Salmon Council
John Bagnall  Chair, Fisheries Committee, New Brunswick Salmon Council

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you, Mr. Taylor.

We'll now go to Chief Ginnish from the Eel Ground First Nation for seven minutes or less, please.

4:45 p.m.

Chief George Ginnish Chief Executive Officer, North Shore Mi’gmaq District Council, Eel Ground First Nation

Thank you. Good afternoon. I appreciate the opportunity to present to you all today.

This striped bass explosion has had a massive impact on my community for the past number of years. When Mr. Taylor was speaking about a six-and-a-half mile stretch where these fish land every spring, it's right in front of my community.

I have to give you a little background so you understand how this impacts our community economically.

Natoaganeg is a community of 600 people. They depend on the programming that we provide, and opportunities. Our median after-tax household income is $25,000. You go a few miles down the road to Miramichi, and that doubles to $51,000. Our unemployment rate is 21%, and that's of those who are still looking for work and haven't given up entirely.

We participated in the “First Nations Food, Nutrition and Environment Study” two years ago with the University of Ottawa. It shows that the lack of access to nutritional foods is causing great health issues for our first nations people.

The volume of food that we're able to access for them is the equivalent to one tablespoon per day when we look at all the moose and fish we're able to access as a community. That's what it works out to: one tablespoon a day. We have diabetes, heart disease, and so many other things that I'm not going to be able to cover in seven minutes.

The Miramichi has a great history and reputation for a sport fishery. Our community has been excluded from much of that, and continues to be. When the striped bass populations dropped, the department asked us to voluntarily halt our salmon food fishery until the striped bass spawning could happen. For three of the most productive weeks, for a number of years, we did not put our traps in to feed our communities.

The drop in the bass population also put a complete halt on millions of dollars of investment that was occurring through the Marshall decision agreements. The community built a lodge that was meant to be sustained by infrastructure scheduled to be built for a recreational fishery. We were to build a wharf. All of that stopped when that bass was listed.

You have heard about the explosion of striped bass from DFO's perspective, from Mr. Taylor. You will hear it from the MSA and the watershed committee. We used to be able to count on salmon as a food source for our community. Over the past couple of years, there have been very few salmon. The few that we get, we share with our elders, because the numbers are barely a hundred.

We have agreements that allow us to catch up to 2,000 salmon. There aren't 2,000 to catch. Our fishers voluntarily removed their gillnets from the Miramichi last year because the numbers were so poor.

We have been telling DFO for years that they need a better process. They need to consult with the people on the river. This impacts our lives. We've been asking for funding for an indigenous knowledge study. That needs to be part of this process.

They need to relook at the way they do this. They make these decisions in isolation. They are not consulting with us when they decide how this process is going to work. There may be meetings once a year, but the season is gone, and it's another year with less opportunity for food.

We've been asking for a diversified food and commercial fishery for our people to help us combat these economic ills that the Marshall decision was supposed to help us with: a moderate livelihood, commercial access. If you go back to the 2012 census, five of the poorest postal codes in Canada are Mi'kmaq first nations in northern New Brunswick. Why this did not factor into the decision-making process is beyond me.

The bass were allowed to explode. The numbers were massive, and still we were denied commercial access that could have helped our community. It has only been over the past three years that we've actually been allowed 2,000 fish to retain for food. Up to that point, it was 200 fish a year in bycatch, even when there were hundreds of thousands of bass in the river. What type of process is that?

We've made these presentations to minister after minister, government after government. They fall off the table and we find ourselves right back where we were.

I had the opportunity to present to the Senate in December. We shared these exact concerns with them as well. Also, at MP Finnigan's request, we presented at the standing committee on salmon. There were some recommendations there. Good recommendations haven't been implemented. Why not?

We met with the Premier of New Brunswick last week. We had the opportunity to meet with him and we told him that we want to be part of the recovery of salmon on the Miramichi. The people on the Miramichi need to be part of that. Going forward, that has to be the way. We told him, “Listen, we are rights holders; you need to consult us.” The consultation has been sketchy, very sketchy. We've been trying for a number of years.

In New Brunswick, we have a trilateral treaty implementation table. That process has been ongoing for 12 years, and DFO has just come to the table within the last couple of years. We're very frustrated with the approach. It seems to be, “Let's drag this out; let's delay it; let's not really deal with the concerns of the people whose livelihood is that river.”

We have 40% food insecurity in my community. When you see the anecdotal and the scientific evidence of what the bass are doing to the salmon, which have been our cultural connection to that river and our food for so long, it angers me, but anger is not going to solve this. At some point, common sense has to step in and say, “Come on!”

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Yes.

4:55 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, North Shore Mi’gmaq District Council, Eel Ground First Nation

Chief George Ginnish

We shared this with the premier and we will share it with DFO: There needs to be an investment in the river, and the people on the river have to be part of that process. They cannot figure this out in isolation. They've been dealing with the bass for 20 years.

From an anecdotal point of view, we'd say, “Yes, you're darn right it has impacted the salmon.” Our elders cannot enjoy that fish. Because there are so few, we're scared to take them.

I thank you very much. I'm a little all over the page in what the presentation was supposed to be, but it's hard not to get worked up when I think about the people back home and how this impacts their lives.

On the bass recovery, my final statement is that it happened on the backs of our food fishery. It happened right in our backyard, and we still struggle with being able to provide for our people. Being aboriginal treaty rights holders, we should have access to that food and to other, so that we can look after our people.

Thank you.

Wela'lioq.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you, Chief Ginnish. You may have been all over the page, but your points were certainly heard loud and clear.

I'll go now to Mr. Hambrook from the Miramichi Salmon Association, for seven minutes or less, please.

April 1st, 2019 / 4:55 p.m.

Mark Hambrook President, Miramichi Salmon Association Inc.

Thank you very much for allowing us to make a presentation here today. I'm not going to take very long because I agree with every word that Bill Taylor and Chief Ginnish said.

We absolutely concur with the recommendations that Mr. Taylor suggested.

The Miramichi Salmon Association is a river organization. We've been around for 66 years, and we have support from contributors from the United States and Canada. We took over the former federal fish hatchery. We operate it today, and we participate in science activities like the smolt tracking program that Mr. Taylor referred to. We were partners in that.

We just find that the striped bass population is too high. Yes, there are ecosystem changes occurring, but this, to me, was a simple, straightforward problem. We were killing all bass that came into the river by allowing them to be caught in the gaspereau nets with no limits. As soon as they stopped that, the population took off. It took a few years because it was down so low, but once the striped bass kept spawning and spawning again, that population took off. Unchecked, it continues to grow. It would be very easy to bring it back in balance. If it gets down a little too much, we can shut it down and it will grow again. We know that it will.

My big concern is with the population in 2017. Prospecting in Labrador is actually creating an invasive species in that province. You know, by letting that population get too large, we are creating a problem. We have invasive species legislation, but letting that population get too large is creating an invasive species for other places. Prospecting? We don't want that. We want these fish to be in balance and to stay where they belong.

It is a great industry. It is a great recreational fish. We'd like to see a strong striped bass population on the Miramichi, but it has just gone too far. We need to get it back to a balanced situation. There are enough fish for a proper harvest—a commercial harvest and a recreational harvest. It's a success story, but you just can't stop. You can't let it get out of hand. It has to be balanced.

That's my statement. Thank you.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you, Mr. Hambrook.

Now we'll go to Ms. Norton for seven minutes or less, please.

5 p.m.

Deborah Norton President, Miramichi Watershed Management Committee Inc.

Thank you.

I too agree with everything that's already been said, so I'm going to carry on from there.

I carry a bit of a different torch, because I'm president of the Miramichi Watershed Management Committee, and we're not a conservation group. We are a group of stakeholders looking to utilize the resources and create as much economics from the Miramichi River as possible. We are not there to pick one species over another, but we definitely want our river to be in equilibrium. We want all of the species that are native to the river in equilibrium.

I would say that we are fortunate in the Miramichi Watershed Management Committee, because we have a memorandum of understanding with DFO and our energy resource development department in the provincial government to co-manage the Miramichi watershed. I would look to our having a bigger voice at that table and getting more done there.

The four species that we look to utilize for economic development are salmon, trout, shad and striped bass. The striped bass is a wonderful fish and wonderful species. We just don't want a kazillion of them and two of something else. I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. You know that the population crashed. It went down as a result of the bycatch—that's my opinion as well—and then there was a wonderful good news story. Wow. It rebounded.

When it rebounded, we, the people on the Miramichi, wanted to go fishing. We wanted to fish for these hundreds of thousands of fish we were seeing in front of our noses. It was a wild time. There were a lot of town hall meetings and we had DFO resources from the gulf region come to these meetings—not the two gentlemen who spoke here; it was before their time—to try to explain the management of the resource to us. We actually had one individual stand up and tell us that perhaps the job of DFO was to see how high they could raise the population of striped bass. In my opinion, that's not managing a species.

You know what happened. As somebody said, they went prospecting. They went on a walkabout. They went to the Strait of Belle Isle and up to Labrador. I don't know how many thousands or hundreds of thousands didn't come back, but they didn't come back. Why did they go there?

I forgot to tell you. I'm not just from the Miramichi. I live on the Miramichi River. It's the last thing I see at night and the first thing I see in the morning, so my eyes have a pretty good idea of what's happening in the river. A smolt wheel catches everything that comes down. We're using them to count baby salmon and get an estimate of the population, but everything else goes into that smolt wheel too. Three years ago it was impossible to put that wheel down at night without standing there and bailing smelt out of it all night long. Sometimes two men were not able to do that, so we would have to stop fishing it. I was saying earlier how many smelt we caught in three wheels last year. We caught a grand total of 15.

The striped bass is not a bad fish. It just has to eat. It's like us, so it has to eat, and it has. It's eaten everything. It's eaten all of our forage fish. We have no smelt left. We have no gaspereau left. It's eaten everything, so people ask how many striped bass we should have in the Miramichi. I'm not a biologist. I don't know, but it would appear to me that 300,000, as Bill pointed out, is 10 times more than the lower reference point. Maybe that would be a good upper reference point. We sure have to get that upper reference point developed, and we have to start managing around it.

That's all I have to say.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you. We saved a bit of time on that one.

I'll go now to the New Brunswick Salmon Council. Mr. Pugh and Mr. Bagnall, can you hear us?

5:05 p.m.

John Pugh President, New Brunswick Salmon Council

Yes, we can.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Okay, you're up for seven minutes or less between you.

5:05 p.m.

President, New Brunswick Salmon Council

John Pugh

It's John Pugh speaking here. We're not going to take our seven minutes. We want to give the committee as much time as we can for them to ask questions. Very briefly, the New Brunswick Salmon Council is composed of 26 affiliates, some of which are in the room with you today. We participate in smolt tracking and we work closely with the organizations. We also sit on the board of the Atlantic Salmon Federation.

We are in complete agreement with everything that's been said thus far. The striped bass certainly are out of balance. From a recreational fisheries perspective, we've heard from some presentations on this matter at an earlier date that this is a great fishery. We don't feel that this meets the definition of a great fishery. It's certainly well beyond the expectation of people who participate in a striped bass fishery from the New England region and up and down the coast of the United States.

Being able to boat 100 fish plus per day is nonsensical for a recreational striped bass fishery. As Debbie said, the striped bass certainly are out of any form of ecological equilibrium, to the detriment of not only salmon and salmon smolts but also other species that utilize the Miramichi system, particularly smelt, which the spring kelts rely on for reconditioning. The striped bass are doing a number on those, as well as the gaspereaux.

I will turn it over to John Bagnall.

John, do you have anything to add to that?

5:05 p.m.

John Bagnall Chair, Fisheries Committee, New Brunswick Salmon Council

Thanks, John, and no, not really. I agree with everybody who spoke: Bill, Debbie, Chief Ginnish and Mark.

I think the priority should be getting an upper stock limit for bass. From what we see in interpreting the numbers from DFO, I think that probably a number south of 100,000 striped bass spawners would be appropriate, and 300,000 is far too many. We did an analysis. As you know, we prepared a written submission that interpreted a bunch of data from DFO and ASF, and it shows with little doubt that the striped bass are having a major effect on salmon smolt survival through Miramichi Bay.

The numbers we see are that only 66% mortality on average is through Miramichi Bay in recent years, whereas before it was less than half of that. When you have half as many fish going out, you're going to get half as many fish coming back, everything else being equal.

Again, I think the upper stock limit should be less than 100,000 striped bass. DFO can do wonders with stock recruitment models. I think that probably they can adapt and manage and make sure the population is sustained at that. That way, we can have two good fisheries. We could have good salmon fisheries, and we could have good striped bass fisheries.

Thank you very much.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you, gentlemen. That was a little less than seven minutes, as you said.

We'll go now to the questioning round. I'll remind the questioners to please try to identify who the question is for in order to make it a little easier and save a bit of your questioning time, especially for the two gentlemen who are here by phone.

Now, on the government side, we have Mr. Finnigan, for seven minutes or less, please.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Pat Finnigan Liberal Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to everyone for being here today. I'm very familiar with all of you, and I'm happy to see that you're here to give your views on how we can best manage the bass. I'm going to start with Debbie.

I'm sorry. I call you Debbie all the time. I'm sure you're okay with that?

5:10 p.m.

President, Miramichi Watershed Management Committee Inc.

Deborah Norton

That's my name.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Pat Finnigan Liberal Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB

“Ms. Norton” doesn't really fit with me.

You also run a business. You have a sports lodge. You bring people in to fish salmon and to do other fishing. It's important for you that we keep that balance on the river, that we keep that equilibrium within the river and the ecosystem. You kept referencing that upper reference number, I guess, and asking, “Where is it?” It's still tough to get. We just heard somebody saying that it should be below 100,000. Some are saying that it should be at least 300,000. If you talk to the people at the Striper Cup, you hear that we should not touch this number at all, that it's just where it should be.

Where do you think we should be as far as the number is concerned? I guess that's my question. Do you think DFO can be fast enough on their feet to manage from one season to another? We heard this year that probably a lot of spawners died in the cold rivers. Can we react fast enough to keep that equilibrium or should we just stay out of it? I will ask you what your thoughts are on that.

5:10 p.m.

President, Miramichi Watershed Management Committee Inc.

Deborah Norton

I have no idea if they can react fast enough, Pat. I would hope they can. That's their job: to manage the fishery. So, yes, get out there and set that upper reference point and manage the fishery.

In terms of what it should be, I'm not the biologist. I want everything in equilibrium from the watershed point of view, including striped bass, because anyone who does know me knows that I bought a very expensive new striped bass boat. We have a great striped bass fishery, and people on the Miramichi love fishing striped bass, just as they love salmon, but we can't have one species destroying everything else. As I said, it's not because they're bad. They're not bad fish. They just have to eat, and they've eaten everything. They've eaten our smelt. They've eaten our gaspereaux. They're eating everything. So set that upper limit, manage around it, and let's get the job done.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Pat Finnigan Liberal Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB

Okay. Thank you, Debbie.

Mark, do you think with that number—and some people would like to see the total eradication of striped bass—we still need to protect the spawning grounds or the stretch of the river where they do spawn in the northwest? Do you think it's important that we still protect that even though we want to get the numbers down? Do you think it's important that we find other measures, but not necessarily when they're spawning?

5:10 p.m.

President, Miramichi Salmon Association Inc.

Mark Hambrook

Back when the numbers were very low, we fully supported all of the measures that were being contemplated at the time. We had to get this population rebuilt. There were a lot of unknowns at the time. Stopping the commercial fishery—would that do it? It really did, but we brought it back without closing angling for any species in that spawning area. People were still allowed to fish for salmon and trout during the spawning time the bass were there. So I find it ironic that when the population gets up to 300,000 plus that now we decide to even close the spawning grounds to all angling. It just doesn't make sense. Do I support that? Absolutely. If that population's going down and it needs some extra help, close the angling. I fully support that, but not at this stage; it just doesn't make sense.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Pat Finnigan Liberal Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB

Okay. Thank you.

Chief Ginnish, we often hear—and I think you mentioned it—that traditional knowledge is often ignored, and yet you've been on that river for thousands of years. I'm sure there were probably some ups and downs in that time. Would you say that the precautionary approach that DFO seems to have taken was the right thing or would you say that they have mismanaged that? At the same time, if they had consulted, would you have taken a different approach maybe sooner? Do you think we can be fast enough to manage it?

5:10 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, North Shore Mi’gmaq District Council, Eel Ground First Nation

Chief George Ginnish

I'm not the expert on a precautionary approach, but it would seem that when you have one species, the salmon, that is in crisis and another one that, even by a conservative estimate, is 10 times over the number needed to survive, the decisions that need to be taken are not being taken in a timely manner. We would say that absolutely traditional knowledge is a requirement of management. We've been preaching co-management to DFO for many years. We're always promised to be part of that decision-making process. That hasn't happened, Pat, MP Finnigan.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Pat Finnigan Liberal Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB

That's fine.

5:15 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, North Shore Mi’gmaq District Council, Eel Ground First Nation

Chief George Ginnish

We're at the point now where we're demanding it. You have to have that traditional knowledge. We have expertise in our community, which has fished the rivers for as long as the MSA has been on the river as well. Why would you ignore that local knowledge in setting a plan? I have great trouble understanding how year after year we could be told when we are so dependent on the river as a primary food access, “No, we just need another year. We just need another year”. It was supposed to be a five-year plan initially, and look what the numbers exploded to. How can you justify that as a proper management process for any species? As I said, we get one tablespoon of traditional food per member daily. There are 300,000 to 600,00 bass in the river right next to our community, and up to two years ago we were allowed a bycatch of only 200 fish. That's unreal.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Pat Finnigan Liberal Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB

That's not enough, okay.