Evidence of meeting #137 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was river.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
I'm sorry, Mr. Finnigan. Your seven minutes are up.
Now we move to the Conservative side.
Mr. Arnold, you have seven minutes or less, please.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
I'll probably share my time with my colleagues, but I want to question the people who are here right now.
It sounds like most of you have been on the river for a long time. Have the water conditions changed from what they were 50 years ago?
Ms. Norton.
5:15 p.m.
President, Miramichi Watershed Management Committee Inc.
Yes, we've had some really warm summers. You heard earlier that we have consultations, and we went to those consultations this year. Although last year was a terrible year, to my surprise I found out that 1954 was even worse. Are things warming up, and do we have global warming? I'm sure we do, but I'm not sure it's to the extent that's being touted.
That's just what I see on the river.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Okay.
Does anybody else care to chime in as to whether it's water conditions or temperatures that have attracted the striped bass versus the salmon? Are these species moving north?
Mr. Ginnish.
5:15 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, North Shore Mi’gmaq District Council, Eel Ground First Nation
I think that when the weather is.... We have had periods over the last number of years where when it was warm—I mean the salmon—and we need to pretty much reduce the effort and protect them. Part of the work that we're trying to do with DFO is.... We've called for more deepwater refuge for the fish. We've talked with the Province of New Brunswick about its forest practices and retaining buffer zones to prevent runoff, to keep the streams and the rivers cooler. That's really important. With regard to those decisions, one in itself may not be a critical factor, but when you add in the effect that the seals have, that the offshore, the commercial bycatch and the green life have, all of these things are just conspiring to make life exceptionally difficult for the salmon. However, the warmer weather seems to be fantastic for striped bass. They've really....
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Okay, if I can move on to another line here.
It seems from what we're hearing that the easiest decision for DFO or the administration to make is to restrict anglers rather than take other measures to address an underpopulation or an overpopulation of a species. Is that an oversimplification, or do you see that happening: where anglers are the first and sometimes the only ones affected by the decisions rather than addressing the seal populations, predator populations or, as you mentioned, forest practices?
Who would like to...?
5:20 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Atlantic Salmon Federation
I can take a stab at that, Mr. Arnold. Thank you.
With regard to restricting anglers, I think you're speaking of Atlantic salmon conservation and of taking measures to protect and hopefully restore Atlantic salmon. That's the low-hanging fruit.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
5:20 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Atlantic Salmon Federation
Well, perhaps as well. However, the impacts on Atlantic salmon are many. Striped bass are front and centre on the Miramichi. All of the research would demonstrate causation when you look at the comparison between the smolt tracking work on the Miramichi and what's happened on the Restigouche and Grand Cascapédia. That's peer-reviewed. That's been done between the Atlantic Salmon Federation and DFO.
As far as the striped bass is concerned, I would say the commercial fishery, so restricting fisheries, whether it's anglers or the commercial fishery.... I would say that the quickest and most beneficial action toward bringing some equilibrium or balance back to the Miramichi ecosystem and having a healthy striped bass population and healthy salmon population would be to enable a successful Eel Ground First Nation commercial fishery.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Okay. Thank you.
There's a question that my colleague wanted to know the answer to and that piqued my interest as well. The DFO officials who were here earlier identified that most of these bass spawned in the Miramichi. It didn't sound like they'd identified anywhere else where the bass spawned, but they talked about migration to the estuaries and so on.
From the tagging, are you aware that they've moved into any of the other rivers, or are they solely focused on the Miramichi—and what might be the reason for that?
Mr. Hambrook, it looks like you have an answer.
5:20 p.m.
President, Miramichi Salmon Association Inc.
When the population was lower, all of the striped bass spawned on the northwest Miramichi, or that was what the evidence was. However, historically, they had spawned in other rivers and there was evidence that they did. Last year, between our watershed committee and the MSA, we did a survey and found successful spawning on the southwest Miramichi. We found eggs. We found larvae. We documented it and presented the data to DFO, so it's not only the northwest Miramichi. We proved that it's on the southwest Miramichi too.
It's long overdue, but now that the population is so high, the work now is to check all of the other rivers to see if there is successful spawning in them. Sometimes you see fish spawning but it may not be successful.
5:20 p.m.
President, Miramichi Salmon Association Inc.
You need to track whether there are larvae and young there, so we're doing it again this summer and expanding. Now I find out DFO's doing it. So I don't know exactly who's going to be doing what. But anyway, we need to find out if they're spawning in other places, because under the the COSEWIC, one spawning location still keeps a species a special concern. If we have more than one spawning area, then it's off the COSEWIC danger list.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
Really quickly, Mr. Hambrook, I want to ask about the smallmouth bass. I know it's not related to the striped bass, but we're talking about the future of salmon here. What's going to happen to the salmon on the Miramichi if the smallmouth bass are not eradicated and escape into the Miramichi?
5:20 p.m.
President, Miramichi Salmon Association Inc.
DFO commissioned a report and if the smallmouth bass establish themselves in the southwest Miramichi, we're going to see a dramatic reduction in parr production because they both like the same habitats and they will be a ferocious predator of the Atlantic salmon. Will they get up into some of these very cold water tributaries? Perhaps not. Maybe there will still be some sanctuaries for salmon, but it's going to dramatically impact the Atlantic salmon on the Miramichi.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
So there will be smallmouth bass on one end and stripers at the other.
5:20 p.m.
President, Miramichi Salmon Association Inc.
That's right, with the salmon in-between.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you, Mr. Sopuck.
Mr. Johns, you have seven minutes or less, please.
5:20 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Thank you all for your important testimony.
It's great to see you all again after we visited a couple of years ago and the warm welcome you gave us when we were out there to study the decline of the Atlantic salmon and the Atlantic cod.
I'll start with Chief Ginnish. You talked about consultation. Where I live we're having the same issue. You probably heard about the court case the Nuu-Chah-Nulth have been in for the last 12 years. The government spent $19 million fighting them in court for rights that we know are protected under the charter and the Constitution.
With the challenges you face as a community right on the water, being unable to access economic opportunities and being challenged by high unemployment and food insecurity and diabetes and the various challenges that come with that, do you believe that DFO has consulted you adequately? We had them here to testify. I asked them specifically if they had consulted the nation around the process and around the striped bass. Do you believe that was adequate consultation or would you say that DFO conferred with the nation?
5:25 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, North Shore Mi’gmaq District Council, Eel Ground First Nation
Meaningful consultation is definitely different from “this is the way it is”. It has to be a two-way thing to be meaningful. Quite frankly, I'd have to say no, because here we are 20 years later and our asks are not being dealt with in a timely fashion.
Member Robert, I would just put on the record that Miramichi Lake needs $1.5 million to purchase that [Inaudible--Editor] to do away with those smallmouth fish. That should be speeded up as much as possible, because—
5:25 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, North Shore Mi’gmaq District Council, Eel Ground First Nation
—right now it's back and forth. Somebody needs to take that ball and run with it, and our tribal council's willing to do that, but it has to be funded and it's got to go through the hurdles so it can happen. That's beyond our ability.
5:25 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Was the 25,000 that DFO allocated for you both sides of the season dictated to you or was it discussed? Was it demonstrating the government's attitude that the relationship with indigenous people is the most important one and that free, prior and informed consent...?