Fisheries Committee on May 17th, 2016

[Mark Hambrook]

That's right.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Mr. Irving, I'm going to ask a bit more about the CAST program. When we heard from DFO, the last time they were here, they had some concerns that the fish released by the CAST program may not be strong enough to make it to the sea and back. Is that something you see as a concern?

[James D. Irving]

I'm not technically competent to tell you about that, but I can tell you that we have 18 scientists—probably more scientists working on this than DFO does on salmon. I could be corrected, but I think that's about right. They work actively on the east coast. We have gone out to get the best geneticist from Quebec, one of the most renowned geneticists in the east. We offered to take DFO.... We said, “Come and meet these guys. Let's get them down.” We sent our airplane. They hauled fellows up to Quebec city and we hauled a bunch to Lockheed Martin in Virginia, trying to get people engaged.

We have to get the DFO folks engaged on this. Why it is so frustrating? This is not territorial. We don't know what to do with this. They are the executives; we get that, but when you're in charge you have to lead. If you don't lead you go in a circle, which is where we are today.

I can't tell you the exact business about genetics. There is some confusion about that, but there is no question that it can be done. When the river's dead, we'll go out and raise fish in captivity. We'll put them in the river, and they'll come from this source, and so on and so forth. It is quite easily done when the river's dead, but the time to give the patient the medicine is when he's alive, not when he's dead, as far as I'm concerned.

I know I'm being quite candid with you, but please understand that you have to have a sense of urgency.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I agree with you. We had someone tell us that there have been 23,000 studies done on the decline in Atlantic salmon, so it's time that we actually did something with regard to those studies.

The other question I had was with regard to—

[James D. Irving]

Excuse me, if you don't mind my interrupting you for just a second. On your point about the studies, I've asked one of our auditing firms to do an audit on how much money has been spent on the Atlantic salmon in the last 20 years, what we have, how many studies were done, and what the quantifiable results are. I hope we can get support from this committee. We've engaged Ernst & Young to do a study for us, and it would be great if this committee would recommend it. I'm sure we should have good cooperation, but we'd like to do it in a constructive manner. This is not about “gotcha!” This is about knowing where we are, what we've done, and where we need to get to.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

One of the things I'm hearing a lot is that we do need more DFO engagement. I'm hearing that from all of the people on the panel.

We've had these studies done in the past. The advisory committee did one just last year.

Is there low-hanging fruit, something we could do quickly and easily that might help? We've hired 135 new scientists in DFO. I'm hoping a lot of them will be able to work with you on the Atlantic salmon, but are there any other things you see that could be addressed quickly that we can help with?

[James D. Irving]

Yes. It goes back to the question of leadership. Somebody has to give the directive and say, “Fellows, get to work. We want results. We don't want to hear from groups like CAST about all the problems.”

To get the smolts that Mark is collecting in his hatchery right now, it took a major political effort to finally get some movement. It shouldn't be that way. It shouldn't be that tough. We're the volunteers trying to make a go.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Robert Sopuck]

Mr. Strahl, you have five minutes.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

I want to talk a bit about something that was mentioned in a couple of presentations. Mr. Doak summed it up nicely when he said that when a bully steals your lunch, you don't stop taking your lunch. Mr. Irving also mentioned finding innovative and cost-effective ways to track Atlantic salmon to Greenland. That's kind of what I want to talk about.

What I'm hearing is that the Miramichi Salmon Association, the Atlantic Salmon Federation, and individuals and interested groups like Mr. Doak's can improve habitat, can study this, and can come up with all sorts of strategies, but that right now there is an issue. We can spend money in Canada and the government can make strategic investments and set up programs to help Atlantic salmon stocks recover, but meanwhile Greenland, which is producing very few salmon, is taking advantage of that work and over-harvesting some of our most valuable large salmon. That pattern is simply unsustainable.

Certainly Conservative members of this committee have called on the Government of Canada to take whatever action it can, using whatever tools at its disposal, including economic or diplomatic pressure, to force Greenland to become a good partner with us. Right now it seems that they are taking the fruits of our labours here in Canada for their own economic benefit.

Perhaps we'll start with Mr. Hambrook and Mr. Doak. Could you comment on the issue of Greenland over-fishing and on what tools you think the Government of Canada should be using to address that issue?

[Jerry Doak]

I'm not really qualified to tell you what tools they should be using, but I would say to look at what they're doing now and do something different, because it's not working.

What concerns me about Greenland is, first of all, that it's an opportunistic fishery, as you mentioned. They don't produce many fish, if any at all. They are taking the lion's share of eastern Canadian fish, and even some from eastern United States as well. It's a fishery that goes back to the 1950s. It's not rooted in aboriginal tradition. It's a crime of opportunity. It is a crime: it's an international hostage issue, essentially.

I think we've been a little too cautious. I read some of the things that come out of the organizations. I can find you quote after quote of our key conservation leaders saying, “We can understand Greenland because, after all, we're still killing fish in Atlantic Canada and we've got to stop killing fish in Atlantic Canada, and then Greenland will see what a good example we set, and they'll stop killing too.”

I don't think that's going to work. I think you have a bullying situation here. I think we've been spending so much time giving ammunition to the Greenland fishery, they're turning our own words against us. The reality is that the fish that we were taking in Atlantic Canada, before we gave it all up or were scapegoated, were [Inaudible--Editor], which don't go to Greenland. By everybody's estimation, they are far more inconsequential to the long-term health of the resource. But Greenland is taking those fish, those prime maiden female fish.

Something has to be done about that. I would say to call upon the Americans as well, because there's very good evidence to suggest that it was actually the U.S. submarines under the ice that found the feeding grounds of the salmon in the 1950s, and then announced to the Greenlanders that there was a lot of salmon feeding off their coast. Greenland, of course, took advantage of that. I think there's an onus upon the U.S., too. I've not heard a lot of calls for that. I do get a lot of advice from Americans telling us how we should fix it and all the sacrifices we should make. I would say, maybe they might step up as well.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

Okay. Thank you.

Today is Seal Day on the Hill. We're celebrating the sealing industry in Canada. Of those 23,000 studies that were mentioned, I don't know how many of them have been on the issue of seal management. Can I just get a yes or no to the following question, because I'm out of time?

Do you support a grey seal cull as part of the management of the predators of Atlantic salmon?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Robert Sopuck]

Very short answers, please.

[A voice]

Yes.

[James D. Irving]

I support a grey seal harvest, not a cull. I think we have to do everything in a sustainable way.

[Mark Hambrook]

A good point.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Robert Sopuck]

Does anybody else want to weigh in?

[James D. Irving]

I just have one comment very briefly on the question about what we can do about Greenland. I really believe we need to use technology to track where the inventory goes. We have to find a cheap way to track salmon on a larger scale. Then if we know where the salmon are going, where they are disappearing, we're going to know a whole lot more about things. I researched this.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Robert Sopuck]

I'm afraid the time is up. Thank you very much.

Mr. Morrissey, for five minutes.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

I want to go back. In the presentations here today, you're putting a lot of stock on capturing seaward migrating smolt and raising those. We heard on the first day the most senior DFO officials being lukewarm or cautious on that approach. They didn't attach a lot to it.

My question is, what have they got wrong?

[James D. Irving]

I'd like to take a shot at that.

I haven't heard any original thinking. Nobody is coming out and saying, “Okay, we can't do that but we should do this.” We get the negative side of the story. If somebody has a better idea, hallelujah, speak up. Don't keeping saying no, no, no. We know where we are today.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

I'd like to hear from Mr. Hambrook, because they were not supportive. They said that this practice that you're doing may lead to more problems than it's going to solve.

[Mark Hambrook]

Well, I guess that's a matter of opinion. We talked to the geneticists about this issue. We need to do something. This one makes the most logical sense. If the fish are not as fit as they should be through this practice, they'll be eaten and gone. We don't see the threat. It's not the answer; I clearly understand that this is not the way out of the crisis facing Atlantic salmon, but it is a way of filling the gaps until we do get the answers. We need to explore this technology fully and fully understand the consequences of it.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Since the mid-1990s the salmon stock has dropped dramatically and basically has flatlined over that period, and we're now in 2016. My question is a general one. Given all the expertise and all the money that has been thrown at the problem, who has failed the salmon industry?

[Mark Hambrook]

That's a good question. I could take a stab at that.