Fisheries Committee on May 6th, 2019

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

Last August, the Government of Canada announced $400,000 over three years—about $133,000 per year—to the Canadian Council on Invasive Species for educational outreach purposes. This was intended to complement the efforts deployed by the Province of B.C. and other partners within the Okanagan basin. Are you familiar with that funding announcement?

[Bob McLean]

I wasn't personally involved directly with that funding, but I'm aware of that project, yes.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Okay. Are you able to tell me how the funding announced last year has been or will be utilized in the Okanagan basin?

[Bob McLean]

Yes, in part. We're developing information products, including, for example, videos, to communicate what people need to do with respect to the “Clean Drain Drive” program.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Is there anything more than the video program?

[Bob McLean]

There are other products. I'm not the individual in the organization who's working directly on that initiative.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Okay. Could we possibly get that information sent to the committee so that we can see how the funding has been used? It was quite a targeted announcement for the Okanagan basin, so I want to make sure that the funding came to that area and that the benefits are felt there.

This issue is obviously nationwide.

Mr. Demenok, I believe it was you who pointed out that over 80% of the funding is in the Great Lakes area, and you've pointed out that we have no measures that I'm aware of at this point to control float planes coming in and out of possibly infested areas anywhere in Canada. Luckily we have MP Kelly Block, who sits on the transport committee, subbing here today. She may have some information on this.

How important is it, in your mind, that we take preventative steps? I've talked with you a few times on the potential impacts. Maybe you can elaborate a little on the potential impacts to salmon species and the rest of the lake system.

[Paul Demenok]

Thanks, Mel.

This is a critically important concern for the Shuswap Watershed Council and the residents of this area. This is one of the last pristine interior lake aquatic systems in the country. It's known as a sensitive receiving environment. If we ever were to receive an infestation of AIS of any sort, the invaders would just overwhelm our salmon hatchery here. That's certainly a major concern from the standpoint of a number of parameters. Because of the world-famous Adams River salmon run that occurs here, millions and millions of salmon are reared in our lakes.

This is a primary concern, but it's not just that. It's also the fact that tens of thousands of people draw their drinking water from this watershed. It's a primary economic driver for our area. We're well known as a primary recreational area, as a very attractive place to enjoy vacations.

The consequences here just can't be overstated. They could be devastating.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Do you have any information on what could possibly be done for treatments? We hear that they can clog intake pipes for municipal water systems, but what about small domestic systems? Are there a number of those around as well?

[Paul Demenok]

We have tens of thousands of them on Shuswap Lake alone, from which people are drawing and treating their own water from the lake. I'm not aware of an effective decontamination process at this point, other than replacing water intake valves and screens and so on.

I was interested in the comment made earlier about using potash as a primary treatment method, but I have not come across its being used with any success as yet. I guess that's still in the research phase, if I understood you correctly.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. McLean, you noted that in order to protect waterways, a partnership approach is needed—I believe you said with jurisdictional co-operation and with other organizations. Can you elaborate on how you might see that unfolding?

[Bob McLean]

I think the first step is to identify the actions that are needed to close the pathway and, if you're referring to transport from one area of Canada to another, identifying the appropriate role for the federal government and also the provincial governments.

Non-governmental organizations, as we've heard already, can play a role at some of the points where people are leaving lakes that are already contaminated with invasive species by working with lake associations, for example, and building awareness, so that behaviours are changing. If people are aware of the consequences of moving invasive species, then that kind of peer pressure or assertion of social norms, such as the importance of cleaning your boat, is the way that associations such as lake associations and community associations that are near lakes that have invasive species can make a contribution.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

This is for Mr. Orb and I guess Mr. Demenok and Erin Vieira.

Mr. Orb, you quoted that AIS regulations are not fully enforced. Can you elaborate a little further on how you see they're not enforced?

Mr. Demenok or Erin, give a quick response on that. I know my time is running short.

[Raymond Orb]

We believe, through the task force we have, that we don't see the regulations being fully enforced. We believe all we've been doing so far in our province is educating people. We're asking our province to contribute funding towards it, and our province is looking, obviously, to the federal government for some help on this.

To be clear, the province of Saskatchewan has over 100,000 lakes. We have more lakes, I believe, than most other provinces maybe have combined. We have some man-made lakes. I spoke of Lake Diefenbaker. That's only one large lake that's used primarily for drinking water provision and irrigation, but we have a lot of places. We have a big province, and we have borders. We have northern borders and southern borders, one with Alberta and one with Manitoba, and we have a lot of work to do. We just don't see the federal government contributing as much as we'd like to. That's why we'd like to get that message across.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Okay, your time is well up.

Now we go to Mr. Donnelly for seven minutes or less, please.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all our witnesses for providing your testimony on this topic today.

I'll start with Mr. McLean and Mr. DeMille just picking up on that last conversation about the increased investment that's needed. You've provided testimony that this is important, so how much are we talking about? How much of an investment is needed by the federal government?

This is for either of you.

[Matt DeMille]

As much as you're willing to give us.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

I would suggest that you be as specific as you can. Identify the need, what it would take to do, the amount annually with the country working in tandem with the provinces and territories, first nations and other partners, and then you go from there.

I haven't heard a number, so that's why I'm curious about what the needed investment is.

[Matt DeMille]

I think that's because coming up with the number is really hard. We're starting—and I say "we” as the royal we—with limited funding and, with something like fighting invasive species, particularly on a national scale, you're talking about a large dollar figure to do it right, the way that we'd like to see it done.

What it really comes down to is investing, no matter what, in the risk assessments to know what you need to tackle first, and then that will give an indication of how much money you need to spend.

[Bob McLean]

In addition, I think it's very important to go through that prioritization and planning process. What are the priorities that we wish to tackle as a country? Once we've identified those priorities, what are the actions needed to effectively act on that priority? From there, it's identifying within those priorities what I mentioned earlier about who's best placed to act. There will be activities where the federal government is well placed to act, perhaps through regulation and enforcement, the provinces similarly, and non-governmental organizations.

I think having that partnership-based work to identify the needed actions provides that opportunity for funding partnership. It's not just the federal government and it's not just the provincial governments, but contributions from others. We've heard hydroelectric utilities are at risk of invasive species. Is there an opportunity for industry such as that to make a contribution to implementing programs that could and hopefully would stop the introduction of a harmful species like mussels into aquatic ecosystems where they're not found now? That's what I meant by the importance of planning: who can participate and then what they can contribute in kind through the activities of their members or perhaps a financial contribution. It won't be done by the federal government alone.

Like my colleague, I'd be hesitant to put a number on it. It depends on how much we want to do.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

I guess I would add maybe that's role the council could play in taking a leadership role across the country, working with partners to find out and identify the costs per province and per territory. I heard $100 million mentioned earlier. I believe Mr. Orb mentioned that for his province.

Moving on, Mr. McLean, you mentioned six recommendations that you identified clearly. It was very helpful to the committee. Picking up on one of them, citizen science, you suggested that there is a need for a common data platform. Can you elaborate a little bit on that or give an example of another country that has a working common data system that Canada could look to?

[Bob McLean]

The quick answer is no, but I will attempt to respond to your question.

There are models in other areas. For example, there's something called the Avian Knowledge Network. It's people who keep information on birds. There are many different systems that are keeping that information.

I think that it would be a mistake to strive toward one consolidated database of information. It's more about recognizing that these systems exist. They're being created for perfectly valid reasons, and they're serving the interests of the organizations that have created the databases.

It's about, then, how we actually create a system that can access that information wherever it's found, whether it's EDDMapS, whether it's iNaturalist. There are a number of systems even in Canada that have that information. It requires an approach that is more along the lines of what I characterize as a knowledge network: these different data holders' developing their systems such that the information can be accessed and rolled up to enable, for example, improved risk assessments. This is something that we're not really able to do in Canada because we can't access information and know where all the species are. We have it, but there's some information here, some there and some in other locations.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

That's very helpful because we often hear that the last thing the provinces want is the feds trying to create a common platform. However, in other instances or examples, that's what's needed so that kind of information is very helpful.

I want to follow up on a colleague's earlier questions on education and awareness. You talked a bit about the Clean Drain Dry program. I'm wondering if you could elaborate a little more about the need for effectiveness and about putting funding into those sorts of programs because often governments are hesitant to do that kind of thing. I think that almost every person or organization that presented today talked about the importance of prevention. That's what this is.

Could you talk or elaborate a little bit...?

I have half a minute. There you go.

[Bob McLean]

The idea behind those educational awareness programs actually goes a bit further. It's not just providing information, but also causing that changed behaviour. It's the things that people are doing that are causing species to be introduced into new ecosystems. Can those behaviours be changed? That's the intent of those programs, whether it's Clean Drain Dry, PlayCleanGo or PlantWise. There are a number of these programs that are really trying to help people understand how their activities can change.

These are really important initiatives. Changing people's behaviour is, I think, going to produce better results than a kind of heavy-handed, regulatory and enforcement approach. I'm not disagreeing with people who commented on the importance of that border presence and the importance of enforcement. However, we don't have the resources in the country to have an enforcement program that protects all the lakes.

We need some strategic compliance and enforcement effort on the part of governments, federal and provincial. Then we need to complement that with these campaigns that are designed not only to help Canadians be aware, but also to help them understand how they can change their activities to produce the results that we want.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Donnelly.

Now we'll go to Mr. Fraser for seven minutes or less.