Fisheries Committee on May 19th, 2016

[Dr. Robert Devlin]

Pacific salmon.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Okay. One of the things we've heard a lot during the testimony is that aquaculture, particularly open-pen aquaculture, is a real concern if it's put close to waterways that have wild Atlantic salmon, because of the escapees.

Do you see that as not really an issue, then, or am I just taking two and two and getting five? I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that.

[Dr. Robert Devlin]

On the west coast of Canada, where Atlantic salmon are not indigenous, there seems to be very little risk of them hybridizing with Pacific salmon. We do get the odd few survivors, but they die very early in development, and never would contribute any of the genetic material to the next generation. So it's not really an issue on that side.

With regard to where you can have hybridization between escaped aquaculture fish and wild populations, there's quite a bit of literature on Atlantic salmon but also other salmonids—Pacific salmon, rainbow trout—that shows that when they do hybridize, they produce a less fit individual. Depending on the numbers of animals that escape, there is the potential, particularly, as we've heard, in small populations, for those introgressions, or hybridization events, to cause genetic damage and fitness damage to those smaller populations.

A number of measures are being considered. Of course, the first thing you need to focus on is excellent physical containment. There have been massive improvements in that in the aquaculture cages. As well, biological containment measures are being developed with the development of sterile triploids, fish that are unable to reproductively interact if they do escape from a net pen.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you.

Mr. Green, you talked about working together. I believe you mentioned first nations, provincial, federal, DFO groups working together, and universities too, I think. How do you better integrate the research efforts that all of these groups do? How can we make sure, if we're working together, that we have the proper data, and that the research is integrated properly?

[Morris Green]

If your task force establishes an overarching management policy or a management plan for salmon, then within it there might be segments that particular people could address more adequately than others. For example, Dr. Cunjak is a freshwater biologist specialist. Maybe part of it requires that. There may be somebody else who could deal better with the estuaries. There may be somebody else who'd be better at the marine science.

So you're giving everybody what they do best in order to contribute to an overall better result in the end.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Who do you see as the lead on that?

[Morris Green]

I see DFO, and I see them putting an ADM in charge of that, somebody who has a proven track record, somebody capable of getting a job done. Give them the resources, the people, and the support, and they'll do it.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you.

Do I have time for one more question?

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

You have one minute.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you.

Monsieur Caron, you mentioned “controlled exploitation zones”. Is that like an enforcement group? Can you explain that to me a little bit more? How does it work, and how is it different from DFO enforcement?

[François Caron]

Yes, that is unique to Quebec. These are local associations that are close to the rivers.

Let's take the city of Gaspé as an example; a group of citizens there can indicate that it is interested in managing the fishery in the rivers there. It then signs a contract with the Government of Quebec, who gives it the power to collect the daily fishing fees. In return, it has the obligation to hire salmon conservation officers for the rivers, and to offer services to the fishermen.

This way of managing is very different in Quebec. It is more costly for Quebeckers to fish. However, the salmon is better protected.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you very much.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

We're now going to go to a five-minute round of questions.

Mr. Arnold, go ahead, please.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to all of you for taking the time to appear before the committee today.

I have a few questions. None of them are very long but I'm hoping we can get through all of them.

Mr. Green, you mentioned that there seems to be some interest in predator control and so on. What would you consider to be the biggest barrier to that? Is it the lack of science around what might be the results? Is it reluctance within DFO, or social pressure against it? Is it a capacity to actually carry out predator management, or is it political will or all of the above?

[Morris Green]

It's probably a combination of all of the above.

Again, I'm sort of whipping the same horse. I really believe that a task force could put those things in perspective and deal with them with the priority they deserve. I really believe that's the ultimate answer to solving this problem in a couple of ways. First of all, it's going to be a signal to the salmon community that Canada is serious again. In 1971, we had a federal cabinet minister named Jack Davis, a guy who graduated from school in Kamloops. He went on to become a Rhodes Scholar. He, in four months, did more to promote salmon conservation in Canada than any other single minister before his time and, I might say, since. If you want to read a little history of what's happened in the conservation business, I refer you to my book, 160 Years of Salmon Stories. By the way, all the profits go to the Atlantic Salmon Museum. In this book, I talk about the life of Dr. Wilfred Carter and Jack Fenety, people who fought on the front lines, giants of conservation. In there, I talk about what they did and how that progressed.

Jack Davis, to me, is one of the greatest heros the Atlantic salmon ever had. Another is John Fraser. Another is John Crosbie. Those people stood up when it was time to be counted, and they made a difference. Ministers who stand up can make a difference, and that's why I think that if Minister Tootoo decides to set up this task force, then he'll be standing up and he'll be somebody people will be talking about in 50 years' time as being the one who made the difference.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

Maybe each of you can answer the next question quickly.

I'm just wondering how effective the recreational fisheries conservation partnerships program has been in bringing in projects that are beneficial to the river and possibly the estuary with regard to habitat issues. Has it been an effective program?

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Dr. Cunjak.

[Rick Cunjak]

Is this the “rec fish” program of about a decade ago? Is that what you mean?

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

No, it's just in the last few years that we've introduced government funding being available for conservation groups to implement and —

[Rick Cunjak]

I guess the fact that I asked if it was the ten-year-old one probably suggests that I would think it probably hasn't been that effective, in my opinion.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

I'm just curious, because I know that in some areas it has been. Maybe the word needs to get out there about the good work that has been done in other areas with that program.

Mr. Caron, you mentioned that in the 1990s there was a dramatic change in the return numbers and so on.

Do you have any input into what you would peg those dramatic changes to? Would it be habitat or fishing? At this point there's been a lot of work done and so many studies that we must have some idea.

[François Caron]

Yes.

Over those years, researchers at the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, oceanographers, have shown that in the Labrador Sea in particular, that is to say in the salmon--and cod--wintering zones, water temperatures have been abnormally cold during several consecutive years. This had a very important effect on the survival of the fish that were there during the winter. Since then, the water temperature has returned to normal.

If you look at temperature graphs for all of Canada, you will see that the Labrador Sea currents are often colder than water in other regions. Climatologists attribute this to the more rapid melting of glaciers in the North, which makes the water colder and sends more cold water into the Labrador Sea.

However, that is not the only factor. There have been other changes at sea. People will talk to you about the increase in the number of predators such as seals. The populations of gulf seals have gone from approximately a million to six, seven, eight or ten million. Of course, seals eat almost no salmon. It is very rare. But if each seal ate one salmon in a given year, there would not be any left. In fact, the quantity of salmon predated by seals is very low.

These ocean changes have not only affected salmon and cod, but there has also been the appearance and disappearance of certain species of plankton. We have observed enormous changes. It is logical to conclude that global climate change has had an effect on the ocean and on the species that live in it. I hear more and more researchers talking about this. Yesterday, researchers presented a report on birds that are in difficulty in North America. This is particularly the case for marine birds. I think that birds and fish are affected by climate change that affects the ocean.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Mr. Caron.

I don't normally ask questions. I have one small question, however, before we go to our next questioner.

Mr. Green, is your book available online?

[Morris Green]

No, but if you're interested, I could have one sent to you. They're $60 apiece.