Fisheries Committee on Sept. 26th, 2016

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Mr. Johns. That's your seven minutes.

We're now going to go into the round of five minutes. No, my apologies: we go back for seven minutes. We'll do it that way, but we'll talk about the time again later. We have just over 15 minutes left, so we'll see how far we can get with this.

Very quickly, we distributed the bio and information about someone who requested us to do so. That's Kimberly Orren, who wants to testify. Do I have unanimous consent to accept as a witness Kimberly Orren? Are there any objections?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Okay, Ms. Orren, what we are going to do is this. We have a special panel of our overflow guests; I'm sorry, I didn't mean to describe you as “overflow”.

Nevertheless, at one o'clock, we have a panel of only two people, so we can fit Ms. Orren in on that particular panel for three people. Is that okay? All right.

Now we go back again to seven minutes. Turning to the government side, we have Mr. Finnigan.

[Pat Finnigan, Liberal, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to our panel. It's my second visit to Newfoundland, and so far it's as great as the first one. I'm looking forward to spending the next couple of days with you.

I am from Miramichi, and of course there are no cod in the Miramichi, but there is salmon. At least, we're hoping there will be. We face some of the same issues there that you do with the lower numbers, whether from predation or whatnot, so this is interesting for me.

Mr. Wells, I think you stated that harvest has to be close to the processing part of it. Could you elaborate on that as to what this would mean? Would it mean freezing right on board with those freezer plants that you have on board, or do you mean that the communities should be close to where the ships come in? Could you elaborate on what you meant by that?

[David Mark Wells]

That's a good question. It's an important question, because in the past, prior to the 1970s, much of the fish that was landed around the coasts of Newfoundland and Labrador was processed at a plant at that landing site. As there became greater competition for that landed resource, the competition would come from processors who weren't necessarily at that community wharf. They would truck that fish to their fish plants. The more you truck raw material that's already dead, there are two things that happen. One is that there's a greater degradation of the resource before it gets to the processing operation, and the second is that it's necessary to have infrastructure at that wharf that can mitigate some of the damage done as it's trucked.

The initial part of the processing of fish is gutting and bleeding, and then icing and having the insulated boxes and that sort of thing at the site. In the old days, you didn't have that. You harvested and landed right at the plant. With the greater competition for the resource, you might have a product that's landed in St. John's harbour and might be trucked 12 or 13 hours away. That's one of the things that needs to be considered.

I'll give full credit to Mr. Efford when he was fisheries minister, because he spearheaded the greater concentration and emphasis on having a quality product.

That started with you, John, and well done on that.

That must be a consideration, whether the product is cod, crab, or shrimp, whatever's there.

[Pat Finnigan, Liberal, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Efford, I think it was you who mentioned that we would need to retool. In other words, 25 years ago, the methods of harvesting and processing would certainly be different from today. I think the reason is quality. Should the stock rebound, how do you see that process taking place? Would we have as many plants all over the island? How do you see that?

[John Efford]

First of all, I'm a strong believer in a business sense. I don't like the idea of financial support to an industry from government dollars. I was a business person myself, and I was also, as you know, a politician. I can assure you of one thing. For all of the fishermen I talk to—and that's many fishermen every year—give them the opportunity to fish, and they will provide the tools they need.

We did the crab plants back when I was fisheries minister in 1996, and we based the plants on a regional basis around the province. They weren't all located in one part of the island. That worked out well for the crab industry when it came to the quality of the product. We had examples of trucking tractor-trailer loads of crab down to my area, down in the community where I live. I saw it myself. I was in government at the time, and it was two and three days before they were unloaded. You can't have a quality product like that.

Seriously, for the majority of fishermen in Newfoundland and Labrador, give them the right to go fishing, and they'll find the tools. All you have to do is tell them. The first thing I would do is take every gillnet in Newfoundland and have a bonfire.

[Pat Finnigan, Liberal, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

Thank you.

We've had DFO as witnesses a couple of times, and they're telling us that they have monitored the stocks ever since the collapse, and probably before, with whatever resources they have. They are the first to admit that there are still many questions. They're not so sure why Norway has rebounded so fast. Part of the theory is predation by seals and other animals or birds, but also, the warmer waters could have changed the ecosystem.

I ask this of everyone: how should we manage? We know that capelin is one of the favourite foods, but cod will eat other things. How should we manage? If we're moving to other species as far as harvesting goes, how do you think that is important to the cod? How do we manage all of that to make sure we have a balance that exists in order for cod supplies to come back?

[Steve Crocker]

I think it all comes back to science, to knowing what's there and what effect one has on the other.

Mr. Efford just showed me a picture of what was dinner for a codfish. It was probably 10 or 12 female snow crab.

We need to make sure the ecosystem is balanced. I guess that would mean more surveys and stronger science. We just came out of a debate here in this province around shrimp in SFA 6, that area, and one of the things in that debate was that we had to convince the federal government to do a yearly commitment to a full stock assessment.

We can never have too much science. The investment in science is going to be crucial if we wish to maintain a solid fishery with all components, whether it be crab, shrimp, cod, capelin, turbot, or other species in the water. We need a strong commitment to science.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you very much.

Before we get to five-minute questions, just quickly, Mr. Efford, you wanted to distribute this picture.

[John Efford]

I want them to understand that's it's a cod and that's snow crab.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

I'm going to move this along quickly with copies. Do I have consent from everybody to accept this?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

We'll make copies and distribute them.

For five minutes, we're now going to Mr. Doherty.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Gentlemen, I want to say thank you to each of you for your testimony.

Mr. Efford, your passion comes through loud and clear. There's no translation needed for that.

I appreciate all four of you appearing before us today.

My first question is for you, Senator Wells. You started down the path of telling us about how to best manage the fishery. I'm wondering if you can continue down that path with your thoughts.

[David Mark Wells]

Thanks for that question.

As I said earlier, one of the biggest problems we have and have always had in the industry is that great divide between the harvesting, which is under federal jurisdiction, and the processing, which is under provincial jurisdiction.

In order to have an industry that's integrated and moves smoothly, I think there's a better model to have, rather than to have that divide between two critical aspects of the industry. I'll speak briefly about my couple of years as deputy CEO of the offshore petroleum board here in Newfoundland and Labrador, which is a federal-provincial agency that's at arm's length from both the federal and the provincial governments. It was written into legislation in the 1980s, and its prime directive was to look after four things: resource management of the oil and gas reserves, environmental aspects, health and safety, and industrial benefits.

I think a similar model that looked after resource management and industrial benefits for the Newfoundland and Labrador fishery, where you would have integration between harvesting and processing, would be a good model, and certainly a better model than we have right now. You would have no political influence or interference. You would have no special interest groups that would have influence, be they processors, harvesters, plant workers, or competing unions.

Like Mr. Efford when he was minister, Minister Crocker, I'm sure you've hear every day from special interest groups that are looking for something: some favour, some benefit, or some emphasis on their particular aspect of the sector.

I know that when I was a senior policy adviser at the federal level in DFO, and then after that the chief of staff, every day I'd get calls asking if people could do this or that. What I think is necessary is to set the rules, set the structure for the rules, and then stop that influence from the special interests. By having groups comply with the rules, everyone knows the rules, and there are no special interests that would have extra or undue influence. I think that's a model that should be looked at between the provincial government and the federal government.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Crocker, there was a reason why I wanted your notes. You said something that I really wanted to get a bit more information on. Your government has already started work towards a seafood innovation and transition program. I wonder if you could share with us a little more information on that.

[Steve Crocker]

That is a program we introduced in this year's budget. It is a small program of $2 million. The focus in that program was to look at funding projects or helping harvesters or processors who are interested in advancing equipment. For example, in that program, we partnered with some harvesters for hook-and-line systems. We also contributed towards some on-board technology, some cod pots.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Is it grants?

[Steve Crocker]

Yes, it is a contribution towards capital cost.

One thing I can assure you—and Mr. Efford will appreciate this—is that there is no funding for gillnets.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Is there more information available on your government website on that?

[Steve Crocker]

We can certainly get you the full....

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Okay.

This is more of a comment. We have talked a lot about managing the fishery, not necessarily managing the fish stocks. I thought I would ask the panel whether you have thoughts on how we move forward in managing the fish stocks.

[Steve Crocker]

I think it comes back to one of Senator Wells's points about a management system where we bring the province, the federal government, and all stakeholders together and make sure that when we set out the parameters of this new fishery—because remember, it is not the fishery of 1992—they are agreed upon and they are stuck to. I think that, alluding to what Senator Wells said, one of the problems we have had in the fishery recently has been a piecemeal approach of “do this, do this, and do this”, but then it causes issues.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Mr. Chair, do I have time for one more question?

Mr. Lewis, when the Department of Fisheries appeared before us, they mentioned capelin. I asked when the last capelin study was, and they didn't really give us a great answer on that.

We were presented with information regarding the survey catch. It is an essential change in the past decade of cod stocks. In the 3L district, it is not showing the return to numbers that we are seeing in the more northern side of it. Would you have more information on what the capelin numbers would be in that area?