Evidence of meeting #5 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was witnesses.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Marty Muldoon  Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Kevin Stringer  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Ecosystems and Fisheries Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Jeffery Hutchinson  Deputy Commissioner, Strategy & Shipbuilding, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Trevor Swerdfager  Assistant Deputy Minister, Ecosystems and Oceans Science, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Hello, everyone. Welcome to a belated start to our committee hearings this afternoon. I thank you for your patience.

Gentlemen, I understand that Mr. Rosser is unable to be here, but we have you four, and we look forward to it. I understand that you've been gracious enough to extend your time with us, given the fact that we've just had votes.

I'd just like to remind committee members that, following this, we have a discussion on committee business. The subject today will be what we do in May and June. We have done March and April but we'll talk about May and June, as well as other committee business that you may want to bring up.

Today we are discussing issues of the supplementary estimates (C), and we have questions.

Mr. Muldoon, I would ask you to go first.

3:55 p.m.

Marty Muldoon Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Good afternoon. I have very brief remarks to go through. A deck has been provided to you in both official languages. That will guide the remarks that I'll share with the committee today.

Before we do that, please allow me to introduce those sitting with me here. On my left is Jeffery Hutchinson, recently appointed deputy commissioner of strategy and shipbuilding for the Canadian Coast Guard. Immediately to my right is Kevin Stringer, our senior assistant deputy minister for ecosystems and fisheries management. On my far right is Trevor Swerdfager, assistant deputy minister of ecosystems and oceans science. Tom Rosser is our senior assistant deputy minister of strategic policy. He is currently hung up in Boston at the International Boston Seafood Show, which is a fairly major event for the department.

The appropriations process is not news to this committee. I just wanted to quickly reference that we're in the third supply period of the cycle. For us, as I'll explain in very brief remarks, it's a fairly important supply, because of the way this particular year has unfolded.

I'll just pass over the supply timeline but you'll note the growing appropriations for the department. We'll come back to those numbers again.

As we know, there are three supply periods for this year. It is unusual for us, but the department went in supplementary estimates (A) because that was the opportunity to bring in the infrastructure funding. We brought in $203 million in that first supply period, which is a large amount of funding. Almost all of it was for the infrastructure initiative to get us out of the gates and going for the fiscal year.

We were not in the second supply period, supplementary estimates (B). That was primarily reserved for items coming immediately out of the 42nd general election and the hot issues that evolved from that.

Therefore, this year, in a bit of an unusual way, we have fairly substantial supplementary estimates (C) as a result of having held on for the bulk of the year.

The table that appears in the official publication of the supplementary estimates (C) can be found on page 2-32 in English or on page 2-72 in French. What is shows you is that there are 25 items that we're seeking your support for through the voted process. Overall the supplementary estimates (C) total about $184.5 million of which $182.7 is subject to vote. The difference is the $1.7 shown on the table in the total column, our statutory items that are brought in through other enabling legislation. Primarily, our employee benefits increases for the year.

The bottom of the page frames for you what the key increases are related to. I'm going to get into those in just a second.

Supplementary estimates (C), authorities to date, is interesting from my perspective because when you look at the horizon of each of the years previous to this year, you'll notice a fairly level total authorities story for the department. This year, in 2015-16, you see a fairly significant jump. That's because of the two big drivers and we're going to see those in this estimates process today.

This is our capital investment. We're one of the departments in the public service that has a tremendous range of capital assets and a need for capital investment to build our marine fleet and, as I mentioned in our opening remarks, this year we brought in about $190 million just for the infrastructure program alone.

Let's move then to some of those details in your official documents under the explanation of requirements section, page 2-32 or 2-72. These are the big items and there are just a few other things that I'll touch on. Let me just explain quickly what they are and help align us with what our estimates are requesting of this committee in terms of support.

The first item is this year's installment of some $116 million for the ongoing construction of the offshore fisheries science vessels.

We are building a package of three of them through Vancouver Shipyards. We're well into construction mode now. This year we're bringing a substantial investment into those construction costs. Over the next two fiscal years in particular, but ongoing for maybe three years in total, we're going to see some big numbers for this program. Next year, it's going to bump up into the quarter-billion-dollar range to support this build.

Moving down a notch, we have $23.3 million for incremental operating costs. This was a year in which Fisheries and Oceans, after we had begun the year, ran into a few unexpected, unplanned requirements: things such as litigation and settlements for cases that have been ongoing for a while; things such as unexpected events, which in many cases occurred on the world stage, such as the MV Marathasa incident in the harbour at Vancouver—things that were adding up for us that we couldn't find a way to sustainably manage when we were early in the fiscal year. We sought and received approval for an incremental investment to help us with those operating surprises, if I could lightly put it that way.

Another item—and this committee has seen this a number of times—is incremental fuel for the Canadian Coast Guard. The way our operating model works is that we're funded for fuel to a certain threshold, and inevitably every year we need more than that threshold for the Coast Guard to sail all of our operations and run our icebreaking program annually. We seek, and pretty traditionally receive, a $16-million top-up. The way that particular piece of funding works is that it's only accessible should we require it. If in a particular year we actually don't need a full $16 million, the rest returns to the fiscal framework.

I won't go through every single item on this page. Moving to the next one, $6 million is the renewal of a program that had sunset, for major projects management office funding. We're bringing back in now the first year of five years. This is an example of an item that, when we appear before you on the main estimates for 2016-17, I'll be seeking to bring in for the coming four more years through the main estimates cycle.

Skipping one, I'll go to the Pacific Salmon Foundation. We flow entirely the $2 million named here through to the Pacific Salmon Foundation for a science research project that they're undertaking.

Last, just ending out the page, there are two more programs that were renewed. They have five-year funding profiles, so again we're bringing in this year's increment in supplementary estimates (C) and will bring in the remainder through the main estimates.

Slide 10 shows a number of other things that we're doing inside the house or between departments. Internally we are transferring funding between votes. What that basically allows us to do is move money that has been received in our operating vote for programs for which we wish to and would normally run a grant or a contribution with an external body. These internal transfers allow us to put the money from our operating into our grants and contributions vote. They're net-neutral; it's not a new ask.

Then the bottom item listed on that page is the transfers that are listed. There are eight of them, for which we transfer money to or receive money from a department through arrangements that have been made before the year begins. These are usually arrangements whereby we're doing collaborative projects together or we are hosting a department in one of our facilities or are paying another department to do work on our behalf. Those are all listed in the supplementary estimates (C) documents on the pages following page 2-32, or in French page 2-72, as I mentioned before.

The final slide is slide 11. This is new for us. Anybody who followed the parliamentary budget office announcement or supplementary estimates (C) profile that he put out a week ago would realize that this is a new publication. It's not accessible through the supplementary estimates publications, but it is on the TBS and PBO websites. The PBO considers this to be an element of increased transparency. What it asks of the departments now is to declare those items which it feels it will be lapsing forward to next year and say what the reason might be. This table is a replication of the table that will represent our department.

This whole table totals $28.7 million, and the vast majority is the single item on vote 5, capital expenditures. For us, as I itemize under vote 5, this is money we're pushing ahead to match our repair and maintenance needs for our vessel life extension program.

The usual issue for these things is shipyard capability and when we can get the vessels in for the major work that is required. We're moving the money ahead to match when the ships could be brought in.

That, in a nutshell, is what the supplementary estimates (C) publication represents for Fisheries and Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard.

Thank you.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Thank you, Mr. Muldoon.

I'm assuming that you'll be the only one speaking for the opening remarks, so we're going to move on to questions right now.

Each of our members in this first round gets seven minutes.

Mr. Morrissey.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE

Correct me if I'm straying into different areas, but this is new to me. I'm curious to know whether you could take me to what your department's expenditures were as related specifically to enforcement and the amount that you spend.

4:05 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Marty Muldoon

You wouldn't see it in the supplementary estimates (C).

We can certainly go into that lane, and I'll give warm-up time, if Mr. Stringer should need it. Basically what will happen is that when we're before you again—I think sometime in the near term we're coming to meet with you on the main estimates—you will see a much more conclusive and cohesive appearance of all of our budgetary requirements.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE

We can deal with it at that time, if you want to.

I'll go back, Mr. Chair, to slide 9. I'm curious about litigation and settlements. Can you expand on that? I'm curious as to what cases these may be—whatever you can do without jeopardizing confidentiality.

4:05 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Marty Muldoon

Certainly I can't go into the actual cases, but we're not a department that is not before the courts on incidents. The decisions we take can sometimes be contested, and as well, like the RCMP, for example, sometimes in doing our job we can break a pair of glasses. Things happen within the enforcement world. Things happen as a result of our policy decisions.

What happens is that we typically manage with a certain threshold of funding capability for litigation and settlement activity. Sometimes the costs exceed what we're able to handle, or they all come in bunches. This is one of those years when we had to brace ourselves for more than we normally set aside for it.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE

What would be the range of those litigations settlements? Would you have that?

4:05 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Marty Muldoon

It really varies.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE

What would your largest single one be?

4:05 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Marty Muldoon

The largest that has happened in the past? I honestly don't know the answer to that question. It could be in the low hundreds of thousands or it could be in the millions.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE

And you wouldn't be aware of that?

4:05 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Marty Muldoon

I don't have it off the top of my head, but I'd be happy to come back to the committee, if you'd like.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE

I'd be curious to have it at another time.

On page 10, if I'm jumping correctly, your five internal transfers between DFO votes.... If I'm correct, the money was appropriated and voted on for a particular use, and then you didn't use it, so you moved it.

Where would it have come from, and where did that $3.6 million go?

4:05 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Marty Muldoon

That's the sum total, as outlined in the actual estimates.

The way it works is that we will often run our programs based on what will become the need during the year. The money is given to us for that intended purpose as an operating dollar in our vote 1, but we will then set up the profile for how much we need for grants or contributions. In order to make those payments we have to come here and convert it into vote 10 monies so that we can actually deliver the payment to the institution or organization that we're supporting.

We're transferring it in-house to get it into the right shape, and then it will run the various programs.

If I look at the list here, one of those was to allow us to continue our work with the North Coast-Skeena First Nations Stewardship Society. Another one was to advance our public relations activities concerning awareness of invasive species—for example, the Asian carp infestations—and to promote angler awareness and those kinds of things. Another one we have is the academic research contribution program.

Not knowing exactly what every individual contribution may be, we've worked ourselves towards knowing how much we need—the program experts are sitting here with me—and then we will put the money in the right frame so that they can make those contributions.

I'll turn it over to Mr. Stringer.

4:10 p.m.

Kevin Stringer Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Ecosystems and Fisheries Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

I'll add one example. It is a transfer from one vote to another vote. In other words, it comes in as operation and maintenance. That's what we have in our A-base core budget; we don't have specific authority to make a grant and contribution.

For example, Marty mentioned one of the transfers with respect to the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters. That was part of our Asian carp program. We have $17.5 million over five years to do that program. It's in operation and maintenance. A decision was made that we really need to provide a grant, because they're doing some important communications and education work. These are for the most part small grants. There are five of them. None of them was for more than about $300,000.

It's literally to transfer it from operation and maintenance to grants and contributions. I think all five were that.

4:10 p.m.

An hon. member

[Inaudible--Editor]

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

What's that? I'm not even sure what the Standing Orders say about that, Mr. Sopuck. You may have a point. How about I get back to you? Mind you, I just wasted 30 seconds trying to say I don't know the rules.

Mr. Strahl, you have seven minutes, please.

March 8th, 2016 / 4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Hope, BC

Before I get into my questions on the supplementary estimates (C), Mr. Hutchinson, I noted that there were reports of a fire on a Coast Guard hovercraft, and I'm wondering whether you could provide this committee with a brief update, please.

4:10 p.m.

Jeffery Hutchinson Deputy Commissioner, Strategy & Shipbuilding, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

We did have a fire on Coast Guard hovercraft Mamilossa around noon today. The vessel was operating in Lac Saint-Pierre, in Quebec. The fire was in an engine compartment. On the hovercraft, the engines are fairly self-contained. They're in an enclosed space with a forced air intake. That's how they're able to achieve combustion, if you will.

The crew of five is safe. The machine is disabled at the moment, but we have a helicopter and another ship on site keeping things stable. We've slowed traffic down in that area. When large vessels are going through that track, they're going to create a lot of wake, and when you have a disabled vehicle, particularly at this time of year, you want to keep it as stable as you can. Traffic is co-operating. It's very light at the moment.

We're looking into the cause of the fire, but at this point everybody is safe and sound and the vessel is secure.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Hope, BC

Thank you, and please pass along best regards from the committee to all of the crew and those who are responding to this.

I want to stick with the Coast Guard. There is more than $116 million listed for fisheries science vessels. Is that a cost overrun, or is it expected incremental costs for the Coast Guard?

4:10 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner, Strategy & Shipbuilding, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Jeffery Hutchinson

That money is not a cost overrun. The budget for this project was reset in 2015, and this is drawing down the first tranche of money from that budget. It is a large amount, there's no question about that, but we're now 40% into the first vessel, and the monthly goals are pretty significant. This is an expected access to cash that we need to pay for the vessel that's being built.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Hope, BC

These are three fisheries science vessels. Is that the same project as the oceanographic science vessel, or is it a separate funding envelope that we should expect to see at a different time?

4:10 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner, Strategy & Shipbuilding, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Jeffery Hutchinson

These are different vessels. You can think of it very simply as that the fisheries science vessels are concerned with the health and well-being of the fish stocks themselves; the oceanographic vessel is primarily focused on the chemistry of the ocean, the temperature of the ocean, how currents are working. It does a little bit of other work, such as coring the seabed and that kind of thing, but the oceanographic budget and oceanographic project is a completely separate piece.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Hope, BC

There's also listed funding of more than $10.7 million to purchase search and rescue lifeboats. Where will those be deployed?