Fisheries Committee on Oct. 24th, 2017

[Dr. Kim Juniper]

Absolutely, and I think that's a very important point.

I think there's a third piece to this, in that it's been shown globally that the creation of marine protected areas can actually help fishery stocks increase by providing essentially no-take areas for fish to feed and to reproduce. It can, down the road, even at a scale of a few years, result in an increase in fish stocks, which will then benefit the community that is actually exploiting these stocks.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I take exception to “exploiting”, but okay.

If you have an area that's protected and you say it's going to increase the amount of fisheries but you're still not allowed to fish there, do you see an MPA as something that's static, then? Or do you see it as something that could possibly move to different areas? Once it's designated, is it there forever? Is there a possibility, once stocks have rebounded or increased, that it could stop being a no-take zone or maybe see a decrease in the no-take area? I'd like your opinion on that.

[Dr. Kim Juniper]

A couple of points are related to that. First of all, by protecting areas for fish to reproduce, there's spillover into the surrounding areas, and there the fish can be harvested—not exploited.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you.

[Dr. Kim Juniper]

Second, my experience with MPA management plans, in working with DFO, is that these are made up on a rotating basis of around five years, so that during those five years we can create zoning, etc. That is then reviewed after a period of five years. Again, through monitoring, if we find that the creation of the MPA has created unexpectedly positive results, we can possibly open that area or another area for fishing for the next five years.

There again, I come back to the importance of monitoring and flexibility in the management of MPAs. This is ultimately for the benefit of all Canadians.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

One thing you mentioned, which we've heard a great deal about, is the lack of enforcement or the inability to enforce. It's a huge concern. We put these things in place, but then are we able to make sure they meet the initiative, the goal? We've talked a bit about the guardian program and about.... I'm wondering how you see us expanding on enforcement when there are some areas that feel so strapped now—without an MPA—for enforcement.

[Dr. Kim Juniper]

You're strictly referring to enforcement and not the monitoring piece, correct?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

It's strictly enforcement at this point.

[Dr. Kim Juniper]

It's strictly enforcement. Okay. This actually was the subject of a lot of discussion at the international marine protected area conference in September: how are countries with few resources going to monitor MPAs and intrusions of fishing vessels and all sorts of things into MPAs?

People are looking to technology. Particularly in the coastal zones now, they're experimenting with using drones to overfly MPAs on a regular basis and essentially videoing the area. With a drone, you can record the time and the location of any boat that comes into the area. In Australia, they've developed a smartphone app for pleasure boaters or people who do sport fishing that lets them know when they have crossed the boundary into a no-take area of an MPA: their phone starts to beep.

There are all sorts of technological, fairly inexpensive solutions for this that don't necessarily require a lot of people with uniforms and side arms in patrol boats.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you very much for that.

Folks, we have exactly six minutes left, given our extended time. This is what we dubbed the “lightning round”, as it were, so I'm going to ask you to be as quick as lightning in your questions.

Mr. Miller, I think you have one point. Please be very quick.

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

I do. Thank you for your indulgence.

Thank you, Mr. Juniper, for being here. I enjoyed your comments.

I'll put this into one question. You've been around MPAs for some time. Obviously, anything that gets drawn up can be improved over time as you see some flaws in it. Could you name something specific you've seen as a result of present MPAs that should have been done differently?

Second, you talked a lot about monitoring capacity. Does the process of monitoring allow for a change of direction midstream, so to speak? For example, if you see during this process that you're not doing it right, does that process allow for the change required in order to do it better?

[Dr. Kim Juniper]

If I may, I'll answer your second question first. I think that within the current management plans of DFO there is that built-in flexibility so that we can change zonation and take and no-take regulations.

In parallel, there is an interest in monitoring, but what I don't see in black and white in the regulations—perhaps I'm just not familiar with this—is the acknowledgement of the fact that monitoring will help us make decisions in the future about regulatory change within MPAs in regard to changing zonation and take or no-take.

At the moment, we have this cross-fertilization between these two activities. We know that we need to change things as we go along, and we know we need to monitor, but I don't see a lot of feedback.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Dr. Kim Juniper, chief scientist at Ocean Networks Canada, for joining us today by video conference. As Ms. Jordan pointed out, thank you so very much for getting up at this ungodly hour in the morning to talk to us. We truly appreciate you accommodating us, and we thank you again for bringing your knowledge to us.

Colleagues, that ends this meeting. We'll see you on Thursday in this building. It will be our first day on Bill C-55. Our guest will be the minister, Dominic LeBlanc.

Thank you.

The meeting is adjourned.