Fisheries Committee on Feb. 15th, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you very much.

Before we get to Mr. Donnelly, I'll just remind everyone that we do have a bit of time. When Mr. Donnelly's finished, you can ask a quick question. We don't need to turn this into a 10-minute monologue, which is not a reflection on anybody in this room. Let's just have quick questions to ease our way out.

Now, Mr. Donnelly.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I want to go back to Mr. McDonald's and Mr. Miller's frustration with the consultation process. They had lots of questions and they gave long comments, but there wasn't a response from the department. I want to see if you could come back, if you want an opportunity to provide a response to their frustration. They were saying they're shaking their heads about how this could happen. There was also a comment about how every decade we do a review, and a comment earlier about how long it takes, three or four years to go through with the changes. Could you respond to these comments about frustration in the consultation process, how to respond to fishers who have specific needs?

[Verna Docherty]

I wanted the opportunity to reply to Mr. McDonald's earlier questions, so this is perfect for me. Essentially, he asked about the department and its willingness to engage in a review or have consultations on vessel replacement policies. Essentially, the department's been very open to that, especially since 2003 when we released our set of 10 principles to screen any proposal against.

One key criterion was that the proposal should come from the fleet or have the support of the fleet. It's difficult to engage in these discussions with a single member in a competitive or quasi-competitive fishery, because then it becomes a case of what's given to one must be given to all. In that case, I may as well have had those consultations with the entire fleet.

I don't want to suggest or leave you with the opinion that the department isn't open to having these consultations and these discussions. We are. We welcome them all the time. I believe we've shown the Maritimes region that we're open to amending vessel replacement policies.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

In your opening remarks, Ms. Perry, you said there were concerns around approval of exemptions for individual harvesters, given that this may enable individuals to overfish certain species. The department's trying to control the length of the vessel, the quota with ITQs, and other measures. How could this happen where they overfish?

[Jacqueline Perry]

At the risk of repeating myself, I'll reiterate that not all individual fisheries are individual quotaed or individual transferable quotaed. There are a significant number that are not—they're competitive. The larger the boat, the greater the harvest capacity, and the greater the potential for individual species to be over-exploited. It focuses more on those fisheries that are not allocated on an individual licence-holder basis.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

You're saying that size restriction is the way to deal with conservation there.

[Jacqueline Perry]

In part it is. It's one of the tools we have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you.

We will quickly go into our lightning round.

Before we do, I just have a very quick question, Ms. Perry, for clarification. Some are competitive, some are IQed in the region of Newfoundland and Labrador. Do we have an idea of percentages of all this? Let's take a look at the harvesters. How many would be in the competitive field? How many would be in the IQ sector?

[Jacqueline Perry]

In Newfoundland and Labrador we have relatively few fisheries with individual quotas, snow crab being one of the most prominent. As well, 3Ps cod, south coast cod, has an IQ regime.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Does shrimp?

[Jacqueline Perry]

No, shrimp is competitive. There is a regime of caps, almost like a harvest limit, but it isn't an individual quota. It works essentially the same operationally on the water, but technically, from a regulatory perspective, it isn't an individual quota.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Is it only shrimp that has the cap?

[Jacqueline Perry]

There are other similarly managed species. Northern cod, for example, has a system of weekly limits as opposed to individual quotas, and some pelagic fisheries, which go very quickly, are also controlled, and it's in part conservation, in part to control the rate at which the catch comes ashore and into the processing plant, so there are a variety of fishery management objectives in play there when we look at allocations using those kinds of tools.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Ms. Perry.

Thank you, committee, for obliging me there.

Ms. Jordan.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

In Newfoundland and in New Brunswick you have FFAW, MFU, and organized groups that you consult with that represent a wide number of harvesters. What do you do in southwest Nova Scotia where there isn't that one governing body? How do you actually consult with the harvesters to get feedback if there isn't one representative group?

[Verna Docherty]

There isn't one umbrella organization representing licence-holders in Nova Scotia, but there are several that are quite large and that represent multi-licensed enterprises. The Eastern Shore Fishermen's Protective Association and the Grand Manan Fishermen's Association do represent multi-licensed enterprises.

In the case of southwest Nova Scotia in particular, I can speak to groundfish quite knowledgeably. They do have the community management boards, and the department does require the community management board to be registered under the Societies Act. As a result, they are required to have annual general meetings at which they elect their representatives. Those are the representatives who come forward to represent industry at the advisory committees.

[Jacqueline Perry]

I just want to add as well that while in the context of Newfoundland and Labrador we do have the Fish, Food and Allied Workers Union, we don't engage with exclusively them. Our advisory processes are structured such that we have a wide variety of stakeholders, and occasionally, depending on the fishery and depending on the issue, subsets, subfleets within the FFAW structure, engage with us directly, so we aren't singularly focused on the FFAW as the one certified bargaining agent for inshore harvesters.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Mr. Arnold.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

I want to pass on one question to our analysts that can be dealt with outside of this, but while we have our witnesses here today, I'd like to further discuss it with Mr. Vincent.

You were describing the concerns over conservation measures that were the original reason for length requirements. Now we've gone to ITQs. The quota system is used somewhat to manage harvest levels and so on, but you said with larger boats there were higher costs and more pressure to be able to manage those costs.

It seemed to me you were indicating there's been pressure on the department to increase quotas, to increase availability of species for certain fisheries. Is that the case? Have you seen pressure because of increased vessel size to allow greater catch?

[Patrick Vincent]

Yes. I've seen that on many occasions. I can relate to it as early as in the 1990s when groundfish fishers had an individual quota in Quebec. They all had renewed fleets. Then the cod crashed, and the same with the redfish. There was extreme pressure at that time and they had individual quotas so they had the opportunity to trade their quota before the actual crash of the groundfish fishery. But we had many instances where not only was there pressure on the respective governments—provincial and federal—to help financially this fleet, but also they had many requests to get access to snow crab, and then shrimp, to keep their livelihood and to keep having an industry in the regions.

We saw the same thing with the shrimp fishery in 2008, and just before that. The quotas were very good but there was a steep crash in the prices. Necessarily when you have that, they need help from government or they'll seek other resources, or they'll be very risk adverse to having the quota go down and follow the decision rules regarding quotas because then it's their own viability that's at stake. The more expensive the boat, the more pressure it puts on the individual fisher to get the solutions when you see those variations in the resource or the prices. So, yes, you can see that.

Right now we're seeing that in the gulf fishery. In the shrimp fishery, the quota has to come down because it's a resource issue. Of course, the first defence from the fishers is to say, “Are you sure you have the right advice? We should probably stay at the same quota and see how it goes before it goes down.” There's that in and around the fishers, and it could have an adverse impact on resources when the assets are too expensive.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Mr. Vincent.

Mr. McDonald, I skipped over you. My only excuse is that we can save the best for last, I suppose. Nevertheless, it is your study and we are going to end with your questions.

[Ken McDonald, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again, thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

I just have one comment to you, Mr. Chair. I think you were asking about some of the competitiveness. I believe the scallop fishery in 3Ps is competitive as well. There's no IQ or anything on that. They just fish it. There are no limits set on what they can catch or bring in. I know that the fishery in general...and it's no surprise to anyone.... The shellfish industry, whether it's shrimp or crab, is declining in Newfoundland and Labrador, and probably over the next number of years we're going to transition to a groundfish fishery again versus the shellfish. I really think with that consideration and what would be required for vessels to do, now would be the time to start a vessel-length review because of the changes that are going to come in the fishery. People who are now big into crab are going to have to go big into something else because that resource is not going to be there and it's not going to be so lucrative. They're not going to get $4.39 a pound for cod any time soon, which is what they got for crab last year, and probably are going to get again this year. I would think that the department would consider doing that vessel-length regulation review sooner rather than later to accommodate the change that's about to come in the fishery itself.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Go ahead, Ms. Perry.

[Jacqueline Perry]

I don't disagree. We've been contemplating for a couple of years now the shift from a shellfish-dominant regime to groundfish and what is needed in the industry to prepare ourselves for that and respond to that. Processing capacity, harvesting capacity, what kind of gear are we going to be fishing? All these things are being contemplated. What's needed to supply a quality product year round in a groundfish regime is something that we're working on; and quite certainly, vessel length, vessel design, would be part of that discussion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Ms. Perry.

I just have a very quick question. You said that the FFAW acts as the bargaining agent. I'm understanding they're officially a bargaining agent provincially, but are they officially a bargaining agent for the federal government, DFO, as well?