Fisheries Committee on April 24th, 2018

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Respectfully, I understand that the financial—

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

If we say yes to one, we're saying no to another, so it is a yes and no, but it's a yes and no with consequences, and I want to make sure I have the best picture of those consequences before I say yes or no.

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

And I get that and—

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I'll make a huge effort to say yes in your context, Mr. Miller. I'm happy to do so.

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Okay. I have just one last comment.

There's a difference between repair or upkeep of a facility that hasn't been breached and your saying maybe you'll wait until next year because you don't have the money. But when there's a flaw or a break in a facility, it has to be fixed, Mr. Minister. I think you would agree with that.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I recognize that, Mr. Miller, but as I say, unfortunately, that's a circumstance across the country that necessarily exceeds the budget capacity even if we add a quarter of a billion dollars over two years to the budget. But I'll make every effort to ensure that we can be as supportive as we can to that project, as I do for all of them.

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

I suggest you pull some money out of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank. I think there'd be lots there.

Thank you.

[The Chair]

Thank you, Mr. Miller. Your time is up.

Mr. LeBlanc, Mr. Waddell, Mr. Morel, thank you very much. That's our one hour.

We're going to take a short break and suspend for a couple of minutes while we change to the other officials.

Mr. Minister, do you have a last comment?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Madam Chair, thank you for this opportunity.

As I say, we have a cabinet meeting that started 15 minutes ago, so I will excuse myself. Mr. Waddell and Mr. Morel are here. They're going to be joined by other colleagues who have intimate knowledge of the details of this legislation, and if I can ever be helpful and come back at a time that your schedule would allow, I would obviously be happy to do so. I thank you for this opportunity.

[The Chair]

Thank you very much. We'll pause for a two-minute break, please.

[The Chair]

Continuing on with our Department of Fisheries and Oceans officials, we have with us Adam Burns, director general, fisheries resources management; Darren Goetze, director general, conservation and protection; Philippe Morel, assistant deputy minister, aquatic ecosystems sector; Mark Waddell, acting director general, fisheries and licence policy, fisheries and harbour management; and Nicholas Winfield, director general, ecosystems management.

Welcome, gentlemen. Thank you for appearing today. I understand there is no opening statement and that you will go directly to questions. Is that correct?

Mr. Morel, go ahead for two minutes, please.

[Philippe Morel, Assistant Deputy Minister, Aquatic Ecosystems Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

I will just take two minutes. You introduced my colleagues, and we are pleased to be here with you today and will devote most of the time to respond to your questions.

We circulated a presentation yesterday to committees. The presentation is also available on the website. We used it with all stakeholders, NGOs, industry, and fisheries associations to present the act after it was tabled. I hope it's providing you good context.

You see, given the number of DGs around the table, the complexity of the Fisheries Act. We consulted over 16 months, received a lot of comments, starting with SCOFO, the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans, and we really appreciate that it was the foundation of the work we did in listening to Canadians. We were able to integrate almost all the comments we received from Canadians.

We also want to point out that this work was done in collaboration with the three other departments undergoing environmental reviews at the same time and are being studied by the environment committee at the moment. We have also tried to bring some consistency with the legislation put forward by government.

I'll stop there. We're open for questions and I'll direct the traffic with my colleagues.

[The Chair]

Thank you, Mr. Morel.

Before we go to questions, I want to remind you that I will be keeping time. I did allow us to go over to allow the minister to answer in the last round, but this time we will be keeping a close watch on time. I would also like to ask for the committee's consent to end this meeting about 10 minutes early, simply because we have our next committee meeting over in the Wellington Building. We have to move over to Wellington for the next fisheries meeting.

I would appreciate it if I could have the committee's agreement to end this 10 minutes sooner. Do I have consent? Is that fine? Thank you.

There's a large demonstration outside so it might take a little bit longer.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Madam Chair, if there are any adjustments to times because of the 10-minute shortage, I just ask that the time allotment be appropriated accordingly.

[The Chair]

That's noted. Thank you, Mr. Arnold.

We're going to start with our first round of questions. We will be going to Mr. Morrissey for seven minutes, please.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to follow up on the topic that was started by my colleague, Mr. Sopuck, and that the minister spoke to.

One of the most frustrating aspects for farmers, or for small municipalities, is the unknown. One of the criticisms I heard so often in the past, as related to altering, whether in fishery or habitat, was that it was difficult to understand what the expectations were and what had to be done. I would ask whoever can speak to this issue to address how these changes under your code of practice are going to clearly.... If I'm a farmer or a small municipality, I can go to a section and say, “Here's what it is, and I understand what has to be done”, so that I'm not going through this lengthy process that gives the department a bad eye in the public and takes months and months to get through and deal with it.

It's important we get that right, that this committee be able to improve that. We heard a lot of evidence on this on both sides. Could you speak briefly to how you see the code of practice being modernized and made more efficient for the person who would be impacted as well as the department enforcing it?

[Philippe Morel]

The codes of practice are exactly made for that. The previous regime knows that the self-assessment on the website also brought to light uncertainty.

Codes of practice are best practices to conclude a work. As the minister described earlier, it could be a culvert, it could be a small municipal work, or it could be farm drainage. Everything is confined, in consultation with the potential users, in a document that becomes regulation. It's a regulation that will provide some due diligence. If you follow the code of practice, you, in a certain way, will get the due diligence you need and won't have to ask for Fisheries Act authorization.

Therefore, you will have some certainty, if you follow what's in the codes of practice—which are built on best practices, the best ways to execute some work—that you have done your due diligence and you don't need to ask for Fisheries Act authorization.

The certainty it brings.... We will need to build those schools of practice. Some of them are already—

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Will it be in everyday language or bureaucratese? It's one thing having it there, but it's the ability to understand.

[Philippe Morel]

A good example would be a dock that has interaction with a fish habitat. The code will describe the kind of analysis you need to provide before starting the work and how the work should be done in a way that it does not impact the fish or the fish habitat. That code will be developed with DFO officials and stakeholders, including best practices in the code, and the code will be regulated. It will be published in the Canada Gazette, and people will be able to comment.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Read it and understand it.

Moving on, one of the criticisms I have heard on numerous occasions from the commercial fishing industry references suspension and cancellation. It's under these sections. When fishermen are caught violating and doing something wrong, the imposed penalty and fine is getting out of step with the benefit of the infraction that they're doing. Am I making myself clear? That's especially as it relates to the lucrative lobster fishery and crab fishery.

I know there's money in the budget to hire more conservation and protection people, but you can't have enough. There must be enough of a deterrent through the court system when somebody is proven guilty and charged with an infraction to ensure that fishermen follow regulations.

Could you speak to that part of the legislation? I know it depends on the courts, but I'm hearing more and more from fishers that the fines, the suspensions imposed when fishers are found guilty of violating the Fisheries Act, are barely a slap on the wrist in some cases.

[Philippe Morel]

Darren, do you want to answer?

Darren is the DG for enforcement.

[Darren Goetze, Director General, Conservation and Protection, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

Thank you.

In terms of the fines, of course those are levied by the courts and they're not within our areas of responsibility.

We are working with the Public Prosecution Service of Canada to improve the information that is provided to the courts that informs the sentencing, but of course I can't comment on—

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

No, I realize that the courts do it, but how much interaction is from the department to the courts to educate them to the fact that the fines are not current?

[Darren Goetze]

We provide information to the courts. Through the Public Prosecution Service of Canada, we will provide information on the extent of damages or impacts that a particular violation has caused to a community or to fisheries in a particular area.

That is up to the courts to consider accordingly, but we are doing our best to provide the information as required.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Could you give me an example of what has changed in the past year? Take one example.