Fisheries Committee on Aug. 11th, 2020

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, special guests, for your input and the perspectives that you all bring to the table today. I'd like to direct my questions to Mr. Pearce to start.

DFO recently provided the committee with written responses to questions raised by committee members about the pinniped population in and on the B.C. coast. The DFO responses stated:

The current harbour seal population is in line with historic population norms....

Steller sea lion populations in BC waters have increased by approximately 4-fold since surveys began in the early 1970s.

Do you agree with these statements?

[Ken Pearce]

I strongly disagree with the seal population's.... In our IFMP, we have historical data presented that the current populations are almost double that of the pre-arrival of the white man to the coast. By Olesiuk's study, we're at 105,000 seals, and we were at 50-odd thousand because of normal hunting by the strong first nations. On the sea lion population, I agree with those numbers and they're a major problem.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you.

It is apparent that active management of pinnipeds in our Pacific region could be a valuable tool for conserving and restoring wild salmon stocks. Could you describe what a sustainable pinniped fishery should look like, if the purpose of the fishery is to conserve and help restore the wild salmon populations?

[Ken Pearce]

In our IFMP we're targeting a reduction through harvest—and we have markets for the by-products of the seals—reducing them by 50% over the next three years. It's a trial test for the first 10,000 or 15,000 to scientifically assess whether or not we're on track.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

The active management and removal of specific pinnipeds in specific locations on the Pacific coast have delivered measurable results for wild stocks. Endangered winter steelhead in Oregon's upper Willamette River system continue to show improved numbers this season, following the removal of 33 pinnipeds from the waters in 2019. We keep hearing from the government that they need to study the pinniped factor more.

Do you think that the proven results of active predator management in other jurisdictions could be achieved in our waters if we were to adopt active management of predator populations that have grown unchecked?

[Ken Pearce]

First of all, let's address the studies. We've studied this to death. We've spent millions on it. We have the top scientists on both sides of the border specifically pointing out the consumption.

I am actively following what's happening on the Columbia River because I think it's applicable to the Fraser system. There's a 23-member board that met in August to specifically talk about culling, not harvesting, the sea lions on the Columbia, and that report will be out by the end of September. I think that should provide a very good road map for us moving forward.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Pearce.

Mr. Chair, do I have time for another question?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Yes. You can have a quick one, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Okay.

This question is for Mr. Snyder.

As I'm sure you are aware, the federal government attempted to cut funding for the salmonid enhancement program in 2017. The SEP provides valuable support for public education and grassroots conservation institutes in B.C. for the benefit of our wild Pacific salmon.

Has the Spruce City Wildlife Association benefited from the SEP resources in the past, and how important is the salmonid enhancement program to grassroots organizations like yours in B.C.?

[Dustin Snyder]

Thank you for the question. That program is extremely important.

The Spruce City Wildlife Association did benefit in the past. However, there were significant cuts to this area, I believe in 2012, and a lot of those resources were taken away from the upper Fraser. All of our habitat staff are now based out of Kamloops.

Again, we have one community adviser here, who would be our only SEP staff from Kamloops to the top of the Fraser watershed. If you look at that on a map, it's a pretty significant chunk of the province and we have one SEP staff member. In that Williams Lake to Valemount-Vanderhoof area, he runs the stream to sea program, so that gentleman puts on a lot of miles.

Having said that, yes, years and years ago, Spruce City Wildlife Association did receive funds. We received support from those folks, and we were involved in habitat projects. However, the resource restoration unit team based out of Kamloops is swamped. They have a really big chunk of area. Even if we really wanted or needed their help with habitat projects, there would be a long line to stand in to get their help.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Johns.

We'll now go to Mr. Hardie, for five minutes or less, please.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you again, Mr. Chair.

When we were discussing the Big Bar situation and efforts to assist to recover stocks, there was an adverse reaction to the notion that hatcheries could fill the gap. There were issues with DNA, etc.

Mr. Donnelly, we'll start with you and then I'll ask Mr. Snyder to chime in.

What does a good, doable hatchery strategy look like for the Fraser River?

[Fin Donnelly]

Thanks for the question, Mr. Hardie.

First of all, I'm not a biologist. I want to preface by saying that my comments on hatcheries are from what I've gained from reading research from the department and other sources.

You've raised the issue of diversity and weakening the biodiversity in the stock. The ability for those salmon to fend off disease and other impacts makes them competitive in the environment. From what I understand and what I've read, the industrial hatchery model used in the United States has mainly not proven to be successful, and it has proven to be extremely expensive when you measure investment per fish.

Mr. Snyder and others have mentioned—and obviously he can speak more to this—looking at specific hatcheries, community-based hatcheries, because many of these hatcheries in British Columbia, where we've chosen a very different model, are education centres, community support centres. They're places for the salmonid enhancement program, SEP, to operate and to work with communities and classrooms. They're excellent areas in which you can build infrastructure in communities, not just for salmon but for people as well in communities. I think the government should consider that type of facility and consider the impact and the effects it would have.

Again, that is to try to get salmon off of life support—or steelhead. That's what I think we need to do, and then concentrate on bold investments in habitat and some of the root causes in our watersheds, which are the homes that these salmon live in, including the ocean.

Those are the areas I think the government should be focused on. Again, I reiterate: conserve, protect and restore. We need to focus on protecting salmon habitat, restoring where it's been impacted, and then we need a conservation ethic throughout British Columbia and the west coast—indeed, throughout Canada and the world—to have the transition that we're talking about, toward a resilient watershed, a resilient way of life.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Mr. Snyder, I get from Mr. Donnelly's comments that economies of scale aren't necessarily the metric we want to use when it comes to setting up hatchery operations. We have to look beyond that and consider a broader range of benefits from operations that might cost more to operate but that deliver better results.

Would you agree with that?

[Dustin Snyder]

Yes, I would completely. I think what is needed, especially in the upper Fraser, are conservation-focused hatcheries. This isn't about getting as many fish in the bin as you can and setting them all free at the exact same size, at the exact same time. I think what we need is a more natural approach, not only to ensure that we can get a boost in the population but also to ensure that we're not impacting diversity, especially given that some of these populations are so small.

In some areas, they've tried, and they're looking into a multi-stage release. This would include releasing them, actually digging fake redds or salmon nests in the river, planting some eyed eggs so that they can transition naturally without any predators, and releasing some at the unfed fry stage and at the fry and smolt stages as well.

There are also a variety of things you can do within the facility to ensure that you are taking a more natural approach. A lot of the things we raise salmon in don't look natural. We use big aluminum troughs. You can integrate some habitat into that, adding some different colours by painting the inside of the thing, while ensuring, as much as possible, that you're not interacting with the fish.

When you hand-feed the fish—and I can speak to this from our experience over the last couple of years—eventually they almost become pets. They get used to you. When I would go in and look over a trough when they were expecting food, they'd all rise to the top and get excited, because that meant dinnertime. However, last year we used auto feeders, and right up until release I could not get those fish to come to me. That was a bit sad for me, but I knew it was better for the fish.

It's little things like this that we need to integrate into these conservation-focused hatcheries. Just blasting out as many fish as possible is not going to give us the result we want, as Mr. Donnelly said, and that's been proven in multiple facilities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Hardie.

We'll now to go Mr. Calkins, for five minutes or less, please.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Alexandra, it's great to see you back at committee. I have one quick question for you, based on the comments you made on the switch to fresh water or non-salt water or closed containment.

Would you like to see strictly land-based freshwater closed containment, or would you be satisfied with closed containment in a closed-containment pen on the ocean? What specifically do you think, and where do you think this needs to go?

[Alexandra Morton]

In my experience, the ocean eventually breaks everything, so it would make sense to just get them all onto land and build a secure system. It doesn't necessarily have to be fresh water. They can make salt water. Then they have a much greater ability to collect the waste. It just makes sense to put them right on land.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

You're not concerned at all, then, with any water exchanges. If they use a freshwater system, the same types of contagions.... A salmonid is a salmonid. If it affects the salmon population, it will likely affect the trout or the char population. Are you not worried about any crossover, or do you think those risks are much more manageable there than in open-net pens?

[Alexandra Morton]

I'm very concerned. That's why they need to come out of the water. It's these closed recirculating systems that are the future of the industry, and closed means they're not getting out.

The 'Namgis First Nation has had field trials for such a system. They built perc holes on the watershed and put dye in the tanks. Then they operated and would see if the dye was spreading. That was quite a few years ago. The technology has advanced enormously—

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Is that the facility out by Port McNeill? Is that the one you're talking about?

[Alexandra Morton]

Yes, the Kuterra project. It's the reason we—

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Yes, I've been there. I've seen it.

That's wonderful. Thank you for coming back to committee.

I'm going to move now to Mr. Pearce.

Mr. Pearce, what do you think, based on the testimony we've heard from other witnesses.... We've heard a number of them say that to have effective ecosystem-based management, where we manage all populations.... This is a typical wildlife management population strategy that all governments use at the provincial level for terrestrial animals. However, the Government of Canada, through its marine mammal protection act, puts marine mammals in a box and takes them out of the ecosystem-based management approach.

If we're able to get back to an ecosystem-based management approach of all species in the food chain, what numbers are we looking at? Where do we need to go to restore some semblance of balance? What should our numbers for seals and our numbers for sea lions be? What would you recommend?

[Ken Pearce]

Our focus right now, because of the science behind this, is on the seals in the Gulf of Georgia and the Salish Sea. The current populations, in the latest Olesiuk study, from 2018, show 105,000 on the coast and 48,000 in the gulf. Our proposal is that we harvest up to 50% of them and then monitor the results. That would bring them back into historical balance. We're not out to annihilate.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

No, of course not.