Fisheries Committee on Aug. 11th, 2020

[Alexandra Morton]

They are the biggest herring fishery on this coast with no quota and no licence. During the 2017-18 first nations' occupation of the salmon farms in the Broughton Archipelago, GoPro cameras were put down in every farm, and also in Campbell River and on the west coast.

There are huge herring populations in the farms and around the farms that are apparently feeding on the fines of the pellets that are broadcast out of the mechanical arms. There is also an impact on the algae, because this is an agricultural industry that is putting out massive quantities of nitrogen and phosphorous.

When I study the movement of the viruses from the farms into the wild environment, the stain from these farms is enormous. There are all kinds of zooplankton that are feeding on the waste of the farms. The young salmon are feeding on the waste of the farms. The birds are picking up... You can get PRV out of the droppings from seagulls. This is a feedlot, and we know that feedlots need to be put into closed environments.

We don't allow wild birds to land in chicken farms because of the fear of the spread of avian flu. It's the same with the farms. They magnify disease and they just have to get into closed containment.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Mr. Pearce, at one point in our deliberations in the last Parliament, we had an opportunity to chat with some people who I believe were from Norway. We asked them about the pinniped issue there and they said it had been kind of solved. We asked them what happened, and the fellow kind of smiled and said they just went away.

Do you know what happened?

[Ken Pearce]

I'm going to relay a story passed on to me by Carl Walters at a recent meeting—

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Very briefly, please, sir.

[Ken Pearce]

—involving the Deadliest Catch people, which you probably watch. They noted a decline in the Steller sea lion population in the Alaska panhandle. They blamed it on various things. Carl asked the skipper what the bottom line was. He said, “The bottom line is that we have $6,000-plus of crabs coming up in every pot and we shoot every sea lion that attacks us.”

This is not happening on our coast, other than incidental...where people are angry and taking out the odd one.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I can't miss the opportunity to ask a question to a recovering member of Parliament, who sat across the table from us in the last Parliament and we had several interesting discussions about pinnipeds.

Free from, if you like, party affiliation, Mr. Donnelly, what do you really think about the pinniped issue on the west coast?

[Fin Donnelly]

Thank you, Mr. Hardie, for the question.

It is definitely good to be back on the other side of the committee. Putting on one of these things has been an interesting move in the last little while, but I do appreciate the seriousness of the topic.

I want to also acknowledge Ms. Morton's comments about how the federal government has handled the coronavirus in this country. I hope we have the same attention put to the focus on wild Pacific salmon.

In terms of the pinniped issue, I'm not a biologist. I think you should turn to the best science available and let that dictate which way we go. I would hope we would focus on issues that are human-caused and that we know are human-caused.

I talked about two frameworks in my presentation. One is watershed CPR. I think we should focus on conserving, protecting and restoring the lands, the watersheds that these salmon frequent and are their home. The other framework is harvest, habitat and hatcheries.

In terms of whether the government decides to get into shooting animals, I believe they will get the attention of the international animal welfare community and that will be a very difficult political issue to address, as we found on the east coast with this issue. That's an unfortunate situation when we start shooting other animals to protect certain values in our community.

I would like to see the government focus the opposite way, which is looking at the source of the problem around habitat and the issues the animals face, to increase productivity and to increase the opportunity for salmon to flourish on the west coast.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Hardie and Mr. Donnelly.

Madame Gill, I believe you're giving the first three minutes to Ms. May. If that's the case, I'll let Ms. May go and leave it up to her to switch it over to Madame Gill.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Thank you so much.

I would speak in French but I had to put myself on the English channel, and I know that messes everyone up. I want to thank my colleague from the Bloc Québécois for this opportunity.

I want to start with you, Mr. Snyder, because of the focus you've brought to habitat. Specifically, I think a lot of Canadians would be shocked to know that the forest fires that have burned through B.C. have not resulted in replanting efforts at all. I'm particularly concerned about that. I know with the steep banks along tributaries into the Thompson and the Fraser, and we see it on the Bonaparte, every time it rains you get debris from the forest fires from a few years ago. I don't know how salmon could live through all that.

I just want to ask if you see any hope of a significant effort from any level of government to replant those slopes with trees that are appropriate to that ecosystem to help restore salmon.

[Dustin Snyder]

The short answer is no. The provinces, most times, focus on planting a monocultured forest that is merchantable timber. It's exactly as you said. When you have hectare upon hectare with no trees, which would normally be soaking up all that moisture on these steep slopes, all that moisture has to go somewhere, and it goes into the ground and then eventually ends up in the water.

The Nicola River, in recent years, is a brand new river. Spawning grounds that used to be there are now moved over by hundreds of metres, just because of the amount of sediment and so on and so forth that has gone into the river because of the lack of surrounding forests.

But yes, what we need is a habitat that's appropriate for that area and we need multiple species of trees, a diversity. We can't just have a checkerboard of pine and spruce.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Thank you.

I want to turn to our former colleague Fin Donnelly.

I love your words around a resilient watershed ecosystem where we focus on the habitat, and I think the question around forests is just the same thing

I don't think I'll get more than one more question in before we go back to Madame Gill.

We had another witness speak about the lower Fraser and the number of flood management dikes put in over many years. If we were to focus on watershed management in the way you describe for resiliency, what role would addressing those man-made structures have in restoring a healthy ecosystem for salmon, in your view?

[Fin Donnelly]

I will just comment as well and then roll into the lower Fraser, following on Mr. Snyder's comments. I think that replanting is critically important. Replanting watersheds is fundamental, and that's where we need that habitat restoration program and a significant investment. COVID-19 offers an opportunity to employ and get people back working doing just that with a significant investment.

As well, there are co-benefits to planting forests that are not just for salmon. There are multiple benefits also for humans, so turning to the lower Fraser, flood management is one of those benefits. If we look at addressing those dikes with salmon-safe passage, fish pumps that could come out, again this is another potential COVID response where you can get people working to do this, working with municipalities and with first nations. There are multiple benefits when you address these issues. This is, I think, a fantastic way for the federal government to work with the provincial government, indigenous governments and all of those partners I mentioned in my presentation to get people working, to reinvest in watersheds and to bring our salmon back.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Thank you.

Alexandra Morton, I have a 2010 sockeye print above my desk. I didn't ask you any questions, but thank you for your work.

I really need to turn it back over to my colleague from the Bloc Québécois.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Ms. May.

How much time do I have left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You have three minutes.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to welcome and thank all the witnesses, as well as my former colleague, Mr. Donnelly. My question is for Mr. Snyder, specifically.

Mr. Snyder, you spoke several times about the lack of data and the need to update it. These are going to be assumptions, for sure, but I'd like you to talk about the differences between the data 20 years ago and the data today, particularly with regard to the recommendations that have already been made for salmon.

What changes could these recommendations make to the actual updating of data?

[Dustin Snyder]

The data difference that we'd be looking at is not only population based, given that our populations were a lot higher back then, but salmon are really unique in their straying capabilities. When salmon are headed up, it's true, they'll return to their natal stream; however, if they're running on a limited tank of fuel, if you want to put it that way, if they start to run out of fuel, they will stray off somewhere. What they're doing then is that they're kind of distributing those genetics elsewhere.

With what they're doing at Big Bar right now, they are collecting some brood stock at Big Bar for the potential need for emergency enhancement. However, what they're finding is that, as they test the genetics of some of these fish, it's not necessarily that certain. We're ending up with, say, either 40% certainty that the fish is from a certain stream, or they're 18% certain. When you get your percentages that low, you can't even call it certain at all.

Not only that, but with regard to the coated-wire tag program as an indicator stock, that helps assess what is coming back or where it's being caught. Now, when you have a supersmall population, those fish might travel together. They might not venture out as far. They don't need to seek as much habitat. When there's a whole bunch of fish, if we were to have 100,000 fish returning to the area, those fish would be straying out to other areas, and when they migrate out into the ocean, they would be covering different areas.

For example, the catch in the marine environment right now might not be showing that they're catching any upper Fraser stocks. However, those stocks might actually be there. They're just in such small numbers. An example is that you can't catch any fish if they're extinct, and that doesn't mean that you didn't impact them at one time.

I hope that answers your question.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Yes, thank you.

It seems that I don't really have time for another question, but I'll make it quick.

How long will it take to collect and update the data so that you can use it quickly?

[Dustin Snyder]

The chinook up here run on a five-year cycle. It would be five years before you could get the data on one cycle of fish. Again, this is something that needs long-term investment and long-term monitoring.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Okay. Thank you, Madame Gill.

We'll now go to our colleague Mr. Johns for six minutes or less.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all of the witnesses for the important work they're doing to protect, conserve and save our wild salmon.

I'll start with my former colleague and good friend Fin Donnelly. Thank you for the work you're doing, as a former MP, at the Rivershed Society of British Columbia.

Mr. Donnelly, you've heard loud and clear about the need for restoration. You talked about CPR—conserve, protect and restore. We just heard, in the last round, that for the B.C. salmon restoration fund, there was $340 million in applications and only $70 million was approved. Clearly it's oversubscribed. The need is great. We heard from first nations at this committee that they were rejected. They said that if they aren't funded, as well as groups along the Fraser and throughout coastal British Columbia, soon our wild salmon are going to be in a dire situation and extinction will be imminent.

Can you talk about how important it is for the government to step up its game federally? What kind of investment is needed now, especially given the opportunity with COVID and COVID recovery plans, since a lot of this work is physically distanced and could be done now?

[Fin Donnelly]

Thank you, Mr. Johns, for the question and for your good work representing the west coast of Canada.

The issue is paramount. We need to act now. The federal government needs to take action. As I mentioned in my presentation, there must be bold action now. If we don't act and the federal government does not act now, we will be on the brink of losing our west coast wild salmon and our way of life. The kinds of investments we need have to reflect that. If we're talking dollars, one thing we talked about was an immediate investment of $500 million for just the Fraser watershed alone, over the next 10 years, so $50 million a year. Even that is a modest investment.

You mentioned the B.C. salmon restoration and innovation fund. That is a good start, with $142 million over five years, but it is not sufficient. You just mentioned the need in all the different communities. These are first nations and other communities that want to restore their watersheds, but they have not been able to do that. The funds need to be increased.

An opportunity presents itself currently with COVID to get people working again. We have had economic devastation globally and in Canada, particularly on the west coast. This offers us an opportunity to partner with the provincial government and focus on watershed CPR and watershed security to secure our watersheds and make an investment and a move, with bold leadership, to signal to Canadians that this is a serious issue and we are taking it seriously. It's similar to Big Bar. We need that kind of investment to move forward.

To give an example, Dr. Tara Martin of UBC is doing work that will show we will need to invest at least $350 million in the Fraser estuary alone to prevent many species from being extinct over the next number of years. That's just the estuary. If we include the Fraser Valley, which is another significant part of salmon habitat of the lower Fraser, you could easily get to $500 million over the next five to 10 years in just the lower Fraser, not to mention the areas that Mr. Snyder has talked about in the upper Fraser and many of the regions there and the ocean conditions that Dr. Morton has talked about. We have an opportunity right now to work with partners, invest in watershed CPR and address these critical threats.

Mr. Johns, I'll conclude by saying that you could encourage the members of this committee to take bold action in their recommendations to government and really work together, for the sake of wild Pacific salmon, to encourage the government to do the right thing. We have studied this to death over the last 30 years. It is time to take action before we lose our west coast wild salmon and way of life.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Donnelly.

Ms. Morton, we heard the minister's mandate in the campaign. She said that they were going to create a plan to transition from open-net pen salmon farming by 2025. It wasn't a plan to create a plan by 2025 to transition from open-net pen salmon farming.

Would you comment about the broken promise that the government is making right now?

[Alexandra Morton]

Yes, people are losing faith in the Canadian federal government on this issue because Trudeau clearly understands there's a problem with salmon farming. He understands people don't want it, so he made the election promise that this industry would be out of our waters by 2025. Then he assigned an east coast minister, who I don't really think has a grip on the severity of the situation here in British Columbia. She started saying, no, it wasn't to get it out of the water; it was to have a plan to get it out of the water.

As of yesterday, in a radio interview, she seems to have flopped back in the other direction. I just feel like the government's not sure whether it's more scared of the three salmon farming companies in British Columbia or the Canadians who see these wild salmon as a national treasure, food security—many things.

It's not a good situation, and I wonder whether Canada needs two ministers. This is a big country with two big coasts with very different needs and very different species. I really think we need a west coast minister, given the situation here in British Columbia, or at the very least, somebody at the regional management level whose whole life is understanding what is going on with these fish.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Johns.

We'll now go to our second round of questioning. We have Mr. Bragdon for five minutes or less, please.