Evidence of meeting #12 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fishery.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you, Mr. Morrissey.
We'll now go to Madame Gill for two and a half minutes.
Go ahead, please.
5:20 p.m.
Bloc
5:20 p.m.
The Clerk
Mrs. Gill, can you lower the microphone on your headset, please?
5:20 p.m.
Bloc
Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC
Yes, sorry.
May I continue, Mr. Chair?
My question is for Ms. Sonnenberg, Mr. Hutchins and Mr. Belliveau. It concerns the mechanisms that we discussed earlier.
What key topics do they want to urgently address?
It may be land management, fleet independence or the centralization of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.
I'll give you the floor.
5:20 p.m.
President, Canadian Independent Fish Harvesters Federation
In the short term, Madame Gill, I think the best approach would probably be to pick a couple of items that are key to the industries on both sides. We have to have some objectives that collectively all parties could agree on. One of those would certainly be how to come together respectfully. I think that's the first and most important thing that we do, as well as that we have rules of engagement. That will not come in a day, but that's something that we should look at.
Then maybe we should look at the successes we've had in the last 21 years—and there are lots of them to look at as examples—and go from there to build out some kind of a plan forward.
5:20 p.m.
Bloc
5:20 p.m.
Retired Detachment Supervisor for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, As an Individual
I would say that Melanie is on the right track.
We can download 10 or 12 items or agenda topics that we'd like to have solved, but we have to deal first and foremost with the way in which the fishery is managed and the resource to do that. Coming together to talk with transparency and to have a dialogue has to come from the fishers, and it has to come from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. I will tell you that there hasn't been a lot of transparency from Fisheries and Oceans. I have that experience.
I think the first thing we can do is to seriously look at getting all the necessary people together to discuss these things at a rational level. We must keep in mind the spirit and the intent of the Marshall decision, and as we move forward, we need to honour what is written, but we must also make sure that the commercial industry has a say in how things unfold as well, since they are so largely invested. So far, what we've seen from the minister has been a little bit one-sided.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you, Madame Gill. I allowed a little bit of extra time for you.
We'll now go to Mr. Johns for two and a half minutes or less, please.
5:20 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you again to the witnesses for your testimony today.
I am concerned that I've heard a lot of unproven allegations and speculation today in this round at this committee. I think it's really important that we talk about facts. At this meeting, we've also heard competing testimony on the matter of data collection, protocols and science assessments.
Ms. Sonnenberg, do you think that DFO has a data collection problem, and if so, what do you think DFO should do to improve its data collection? We've heard lots of different testimony here on this panel around enforcement, around allegations that are unproven against a certain segment of fishers, and now we've heard data that is different.
Can you tell me what you'd like to see, moving forward, when we study issues such as we're studying today?
5:25 p.m.
President, Canadian Independent Fish Harvesters Federation
DFO has a system in place for commercial harvesters that involves the submission of log books and records of catches. It ties into all of the provincial licences that are issued, in terms of the quantity of lobster coming ashore. It's a program that has been in place in the Maritimes DFO region for, I would say, probably 15 years. On the gulf side, it has been in play for quite a while as well.
Sometimes the information is slow to be processed—we find that on our side—but I think it's been an opportunity for us to have better data, and it has evolved. It's not perfect, Mr. Johns, but we on the industry side work with harvesters to make it better, more efficient and accurate. DFO is working at it as well.
Sure, there are imperfections, but it has come a long way, and I think that it has been an important feature in our fishery. I don't think we need any more of it, however; I think what we need to do is use what we have wisely.
5:25 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Mr. Hutchins, you shared your story about the dumping of lobster. You made some pretty strong allegations in speculation, I would say. Can you explain why you shared that story with us, since nobody was charged?
5:25 p.m.
Retired Detachment Supervisor for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, As an Individual
I shared that story because it has a level of importance. It talks about the disregard for thousands of pounds of lobster that had a major value to the resource and to the industry—
5:25 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
No one was proven to have done that, so why would you speculate?
5:25 p.m.
Retired Detachment Supervisor for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, As an Individual
Well, it's because it just goes to show you that the fishery in St. Marys Bay is unregulated, and our hands as DFO officers were tied because we were not allowed to do the necessary checks. We did a last-minute investigation. We did not have the time or the resources to complete the investigation to prove whether it was indigenous fishers who dumped the lobsters or the fish buyers who were buying the lobsters. We know it was one or the other, because we did get that far.
The problem is that if you can't have the resources and the time to do these investigations.... I can tell you that in the Digby detachment, we were overwhelmed. We have a huge amount of fisheries there—
5:25 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Yes, I imagine some non-indigenous fishers committed biased attacks too—
5:25 p.m.
Retired Detachment Supervisor for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, As an Individual
Yes, absolutely—
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you, Mr. Hutchins.
Mr. Johns, you've gone way over. We'll now go to Mr. Bragdon for five minutes or less.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
Richard Bragdon Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you again to the guests who are here this evening. We really appreciate your time and valuable insights and perspectives.
I want to state this right off the bat. Tomorrow, I understand, in area 34, the season starts at 9 a.m. We want to take this opportunity to make sure that the fishers and the fish harvesters of area 34 have a very safe and hopefully very productive season on the waters.
Hopefully things go really well. I know it's always a big day in these regions, when it's starting day. We wish them well.
We're coming to the conclusion of this committee meeting. We're in the last round, and I want to give you an opportunity to speak to us about the pathway forward. Some of you have made points on this already in the testimony we've heard.
Going forward, could you summarize your thoughts about what areas you feel need the most focus and the most attention right away to get to a peaceful resolution of this situation and make sure we have the fishery on a solid footing? We've heard a variety of testimony, but coming from your perspective and through your lens, what would be your top-ranked priority for this committee to hear?
I think that is the way I'd like to wrap up my time of questioning with you.
We'll start with you, Ms. Sonnenberg, and then go through the other guests. Thank you.
5:25 p.m.
President, Canadian Independent Fish Harvesters Federation
Well, in the interest of time, I'll say it very quickly again.
We need to have a table to go to, we definitely need better communication for all parties, and we need transparency for all parties. Those are my three key things to put to the committee.
That's where we have to start. There's lots of work to do, but the transparency and the communication are key to a better relationship for all involved.
5:25 p.m.
Retired Fisherman, Former Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture of Nova Scotia, As an Individual
What I see is that we need that panel or a mechanism.
We need to put the Clearwater sale on hold.
Personally, I would like to have the opportunity to talk about that offshore decision in the Hague. It was established by witnesses and testimony from Southwest Nova. There was a mechanism in place to get their testimony, and that decision was won by our historical attachment to the offshore. Two hundred miles was established as a limit.
Now the Mi'kmaq have an opportunity to have that. I'm not denying them that, but I really believe we should have an opportunity to be in partnership on that particular deal. We're dealing with this, sir, under a pandemic across our nation. With all that in consideration, we should surely have a recommendation from the fisheries standing committee just to put the brakes on this and address the word “adjacency” and establish a mechanism. I think you would give every commercial fisherman and the Mi'kmaq an early Christmas present.
Thank you.
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
Richard Bragdon Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB
Thank you, Mr. Belliveau.
Now we'll hear Mr. Dadswell and then Mr. Hutchins.
Please be quick. I don't know how much time I have here.
5:30 p.m.
Professor of Biology (Retired), As an Individual
What I would like to add is that it seems to me there should be more involvement from the lobster biologists in DFO. They should come out and say what they know about the biological conservation of stocks—something that didn't happen in Newfoundland and in some other situations—and about how quickly a fishery can collapse when people do not pay attention to the recruitment process that goes on.
As long as there's good recruitment, then high exploitation can usually be handled. However, as soon as something happens to the recruitment because of the environment or because of bad fishing practices, the stocks can collapse very quickly.
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
Richard Bragdon Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB
Thank you, Mr. Dadswell.
Mr. Hutchins, would you comment?
5:30 p.m.
Retired Detachment Supervisor for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, As an Individual
It's paramount that we have a level of enforcement that allows officers to make sure they get out and collect the information. You were talking about the need for numbers and statistics. If we don't know what's coming out of the water and we don't know where it's going, we have inherent problems already. If we have those resources put in place, I think we would be further ahead.
The other thing is that I hope there's no rush to judgment and that the minister doesn't decide to create a fishery without hearing all the information.
We have to understand that although there is a perceived right here, I will tell you again that there is not when it comes to lobsters, this one species. The Crown may limit or infringe the right to a moderate livelihood, but there must be an overriding purpose, of course, for limiting the exercise of that right, such as conservation or public safety or other interests. We need to clearly think about those terms as we move forward.
The last thing I want to see is another conflict between the commercial fishermen and the indigenous fishers. Here, a couple of years ago, we had an incident in Cape Breton in which some fishermen caught a man poaching—hauling his lobsters—and they shot him. He's at the bottom of the ocean.
I can tell you that tensions will run high if the wrong decisions are made, and somebody will die. I don't know about you, but I certainly wouldn't want that blood on my hands. That's a very serious thing.