Fisheries Committee on Dec. 7th, 2020

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

We need good news, too. So I'm glad you were able to tell us, in all honesty, that things went well.

My next question is for Mr. Fraser, Mr. Bird and Mr. Young. You can answer in turns.

You spoke about climate change. We often talk about the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and a management plan. The Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans represents the government. However, there are other anthropogenic factors, such as human traces in the environment and human actions that are affecting salmon. In some of the news articles that concern some of you, I've read about the oil industry affecting certain species.

Could you talk about these other anthropogenic factors that are causing the decline of Pacific salmon stocks?

[Phil Young]

I'll just take it for a second before I turn it over to Mr. Bird.

The climatic changes and the human impact changes are real. I think everybody believes that. In the river, especially with something like salmon, which have to return to a natal stream, one or two degrees in those streams can mean they won't reproduce. I think there are huge impacts on that. Maybe we don't really understand just how big that is.

Mr. Bird.

[Owen Bird]

I agree with you, Phil.

You know, this is where it's so important that an approach is generated that doesn't focus on just one of the priority issues—not just fisheries management, not just project-based approaches to trying to help with restoration, but a more comprehensive view. You can note the recent issues with regard to oil and the west coast here. A study that was recently published indicated that oil offshoot from roads was having an effect on coho salmon specifically.

There's a lot that we don't know. It does appear that we are learning more about some of these things. Some of them surely must be able to be tackled. Again, that reiterates the importance of an overall and comprehensive plan that tries to tackle each of the priorities.

[John Paul Fraser]

I would add that certainly one of the most comprehensive studies was the Cohen commission report back in 2012. Justice Cohen did conclude that there was really no smoking gun, no single stressor, responsible for declining stocks. He said multiple factors are contributing to that: climate change, non-sustainable logging practices, urban development, industrial pollution, overfishing and a variety of other factors. This is obviously an incredibly complex situation.

As Mr. Young described, you're talking about a very challenging environment through which the salmon have to migrate in order to reproduce.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madam Gill.

We'll now go to Mr. Johns for six minutes or less, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you very much.

Thank you to all of you for your testimony today and for your passion for wild Pacific salmon.

Mr. Fraser, you just talked about the Cohen commission. I was going to ask you a question around Cohen commission recommendation three, where Justice Cohen talked about removing salmon aquaculture product promotion from DFO's mandate. I think the feeling in coastal B.C.—you can correct me if I'm wrong on how you feel about it—is that it would create more transparency.

Certainly we have conflicting science that we're seeing out there. It's my understanding that the industry actually supports this. Can you confirm that?

[John Paul Fraser]

I just want clarification on your question. The industry supports which recommendation?

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

It's recommendation three, about removing salmon aquaculture products and the promotion of farmed salmon products from the mandate of DFO.

[John Paul Fraser]

I would probably want to draw people's attention to recommendation 19, which said that in relation to the Discovery Islands, which is the most pressing and prescient at the moment, those farms ought not to be there unless adequate science can demonstrate that they can operate with less than minimal risk. That is exactly what the CSAS process, which was set up by the Cohen commission to look at those risk factors, concluded.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Again, I go back to number three on the mandate. The reason I bring it up is that there's a lot of conflicting science. Certainly we've heard that Justice Cohen recommended that the promotion of farmed salmon shouldn't be under the purview of DFO, so that DFO could play its role in protecting wild salmon and so that there is some transparency and separation from the department and the salmon-farming sector.

Do you support the Cohen commission's recommendation three?

[John Paul Fraser]

I think the salmon-farming community, both on the west coast and on the east coast, has talked to government for some time about perhaps not removing regulators—because we think Fisheries and Oceans is a quality regulator—but about having a champion, much like all the other food production sectors across Canada.

We produce food; we grow food, but we're technically not a fishery. I think that would actually be quite useful.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Okay. I think it would be, too. I think it would help the industry and those with concerns to at least have some separation.

You know that the department's been given a mandate. The minister has been given a mandate to remove open-net pen salmon farms from coastal B.C. by 2025.

Recently we heard from the B.C. First Nations Leadership Council. They are calling for the immediate revocation of the 18 salmon farm licences from the Discovery Islands. Obviously this transition to closed containment and land-based aquaculture is coming.

What recommendations do you have to ensure that the jobs in your sector, which are important jobs, are protected and we don't lose those annual economic benefits from your industry?

I know many of the workers. I know the impact. I know they care deeply about our coastal waters. We don't talk enough about that. Some of the social responsibility companies, like Creative Salmon in my riding, are huge contributors to our community. I can't say enough about them on the corporate social responsibility side.

Knowing this is coming, what can we do and advocate in support for your sector as you move to closed containment?

[John Paul Fraser]

Thank you, Mr. Johns.

I think the commitment actually is not necessarily closed containment. In fact, I don't think you'll find those words in the mandate letter as it's currently drafted. I also think there is a process in place that the minister has talked about over this five years to actually figure out how to execute a transition, which can be very different. It can even include a local ecosystem-based management.

I appreciate the comments you made about Creative Salmon. That's one of the four major salmon-producing companies that does a lot and cares a lot about the local environment and the local communities.

I would even quote a very important chief, who you represent, Mr. Johns. Hasheukmiss, the son of Tyee Hawilth Maquinna, in Ahousaht has said, “Through my leadership responsibilities, I have taken the time to educate myself on Cermaq Canada's current practices and believe salmon farming done well, has a role to play in providing economic stability, secure jobs and food security.”

You mentioned one indigenous organization that has opposition. I think we should be really focused on the title and rights holders of those nations who are actually doing it.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I don't think anyone's objecting to ensuring that the sector continues. I think the mandate is to remove open-net pen salmon farms from the coastal waters.

I'll go to—

[John Paul Fraser]

The mandate, Mr. Johns, is to execute a transition.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

That's right.

[John Paul Fraser]

The word “removal” is not in there.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Okay. Well, let's work together on that. We want to make sure you get enough supports through that transition. Certainly that's something we're advocating for.

[John Paul Fraser]

That would be fantastic.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Absolutely.

This is a question I'll ask of Mr. Bird.

You talked about the marked fishery. I was at your presentation, where we had Washington state present about the cost of investments they made around the marked fishery. Can you talk a little about how small an investment they made compared to the return?

[Owen Bird]

Gord, you caught me not having the exact figures at hand. I apologize for that. However, I will say in terms of their investment relative to supporting the opportunities for the public fishery, and in some instances the commercial fishery, the benefit versus cost was inordinate.

That is a very similar situation in which we find ourselves now in B.C. and where, along the remarks that I made in my opening statement, certainly there are costs necessary to analyze and properly administer mass marking and mark-selective fisheries, but in comparison to the values for small communities in terms of economic benefits and social values, they are very minor.

I don't have a factor. I apologize for that. However, the point is that the costs are relatively minimal in comparison.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Johns.

We'll now go to Mr. Calkins for five minutes or less, please.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm going to start with Mr. Bird.

Would you agree with the following sentence? Salmon hatcheries successfully produce salmon for harvest, stock assessment and conservation purposes.

There are some at this committee who seem to be confused about what hatcheries do. Would you agree with that statement?

[Owen Bird]

Yes, I would agree with that.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

That's right off the DFO website when it comes to hatcheries.

Mark-selective fisheries, then, and the purpose of a hatchery to create fish for the purpose of catching fish seems to be consistent with producing salmon for harvest.

Would you agree?