Evidence of meeting #22 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was wild.
A video is available from Parliament.
6:25 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Can you speak a little, too, about the fact that the minister hasn't even declared a state of emergency for wild salmon and then we have this budget coming up? Can you talk about the importance of this budget and how little money is going into this crisis that we're seeing right now?
In the Nuu-chah-nulth territories, we're seeing runs of salmon dry right up. It's a crisis.
6:25 p.m.
Executive Director, Living Oceans Society
I see a number of areas where I've advocated for investment. I'll wait to see the budget to see how well I do in that advocacy.
The areas I've specifically mentioned are research, monitoring, enforcement, building the capacity in the communities to help participate in these things, and getting serious about habitat protection and restoration.
6:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you, Mr. Johns.
We'll now go to Mr. Calkins, for five minutes or less, please.
6:25 p.m.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB
Thank you, Chair.
It is a very interesting conversation going on right now. I'm going to move over. I didn't get a chance to talk to Mr. Rosenau.
Mr. Rosenau, you mentioned earlier in the conversation we had that there are places where you feel fish farms would be successful, without having any, or negligible, impact on wild salmon stocks.
I'm assuming you have some places and destinations where.... If you were in charge of placing fish farms in and around Vancouver Island and so on, where would those be? Would you be willing to share your thoughts with the committee?
6:25 p.m.
Instructor, Fish, Wildlife and Recreation Program, British Columbia Institute of Technology, As an Individual
I'm not saying this from an oceanographic perspective, because tidal currents are so important for the maintenance of water quality, but in my view, behind Sechelt Peninsula, for example, we have these long inlets up the coast that have salmon runs. This is under the assumption that fish farms affect migrating salmon. If you move those farms, on an experimental basis and on an adaptive management basis because I'm sure the industry is not going to allow you to just go holus-bolus....
The sound is a really good example. The steelhead have collapsed in Nootka Sound. There are huge numbers of farmed fish there.
In Barkley Sound there are very small numbers. Barkley Sound populations are pretty stable, so you'd have to try it on an experimental basis, but I am sure there are inlets—Burke inlet or some of the inlets—that have modest runs of salmon that you would just basically sacrifice.
6:25 p.m.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB
That's an interesting perspective.
I want to move back over to the freshwater side of things, especially when it comes to parasites and disease, so I guess we're going to go back to Dr. Di Cicco.
Do we actually face any freshwater, brackish water or estuary water types, or is it mostly in the salt water that we experience the parasitic disease issues where migrating salmon are concerned, both for juveniles and adults?
6:25 p.m.
Fish Health Researcher, Pacific Salmon Foundation
In our program, we focus primarily on salt water, but we are able to have other projects where we assess also what happens in fresh water.
Yes, we definitely have parasites that can be taken into account on this. I mentioned at the beginning the protozoan that causes white-spot disease, Ichthyophthirius multifiliis. That is very interesting, because it infects the fish in fresh water, but we see the parasites also in salt water. We are starting to think that the effect this agent can have is not only limited to fresh water but has a carry-over effect that will show up in salt water.
6:25 p.m.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB
It's not always the case, right? Sea lice only stay on in salt water. Of course, as soon as you hit fresh water, they immediately drop off.
We're talking about some of these other things, though, that actually do transcend both through fresh water, all the way through the estuary water, into the ocean. Is that correct?
6:25 p.m.
Fish Health Researcher, Pacific Salmon Foundation
Yes. Again, this is a freshwater parasite, but we found it also in salt water. We have also found other agents and other parasites. Ceratomyxa shasta is supposed to be a parasite that infects fish in fresh water. We found evidence of lesions even in salt water, which was surprising for us, too.
Even though every agent has its own preferred environment in which to thrive, we also have agents that are very flexible, and they can have an impact on fish in different types of environments.
6:25 p.m.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB
I have a question for all three of you. This is a hypothetical question. I don't want to put anybody in a terribly difficult or awkward position, but if you had a list of three things you could do....
I'm just going to ask you straight up. I'm asking each of you your opinion. If the farms were completely removed, would you say we would see an immediate recovery in the health of salmon stocks in the Fraser and throughout the west coast?
If we just did that one thing.... I understand that there's a multitude of things, but in your opinion, because I'm sure you guys think about this full time, if we were to remove the farms, would you guarantee that it would improve the likelihood that these stocks, whether they be chinook, coho or whatever, would recover, assuming that all the fisheries management and everything else stays the same?
6:30 p.m.
Fish Health Researcher, Pacific Salmon Foundation
I would say, for a starter it wouldn't hurt. As we have been saying during the whole meeting today, I don't feel there is one single smoking gun, but there are a series of effects that are adding to each other, definitely making the life of wild fish much more difficult, if not almost impossible.
From that point of view, every little step we make helps.
6:30 p.m.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB
Would you categorize removing fish farms as a little step?
6:30 p.m.
Fish Health Researcher, Pacific Salmon Foundation
Well, it's a lot of little steps. That's what I'm trying to say.
6:30 p.m.
Conservative
6:30 p.m.
Conservative
6:30 p.m.
Instructor, Fish, Wildlife and Recreation Program, British Columbia Institute of Technology, As an Individual
I can't say “instantaneous”, can I?
6:30 p.m.
Fish Health Researcher, Pacific Salmon Foundation
I wouldn't say instantaneous either. That's for sure.
6:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you, Mr. Calkins.
We'll now go to Mr. Hardie for five minutes or less, please.
6:30 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Thank you.
I'll put Elizabeth May on notice that she'll get her other question in here in just a second.
Dr. Rosenau, you were mentioning enforcement and so on, and the DFO officers not bothering to press charges because there was no likelihood of conviction. Do those charges have to be approved by Crown counsel in B.C.?
6:30 p.m.
Instructor, Fish, Wildlife and Recreation Program, British Columbia Institute of Technology, As an Individual
I think they do, but under the legislation of the previous government and the changes in the rules, they can actually now give out tickets or force people to remediate without having to go to the courts. That was laid out to me by one of the fisheries officers just recently.
There's a mixture there. Normally, for the really big ones, I think they would have to go through Crown counsel, but I'm not close enough to the situation to say exactly where any of the cut-offs are.
6:30 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
It's an unrelated issue, but it is a problem—for instance, with the gangs and guns issues that we have at home in Surrey—that the police can't lay charges. B.C. is one of the few jurisdictions where the Crown has to approve charges and that, of course, stops a lot of action from taking place.
This goes back to Dr. Di Cicco. What do we know about the Nass and the Skeena? They're not affected by the kind of development that we've seen on the Fraser. However, there are some runs, particularly chum, up there that are also in distress. Do we know anything about that?
6:30 p.m.
Fish Health Researcher, Pacific Salmon Foundation
They weren't directly on the program I've been working on personally. I know there has been a decrease in population over there too, but maybe not as dramatic as other populations more in southern B.C.
6:30 p.m.
Liberal
6:30 p.m.
Green
Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC
Thanks, Ken. You're a hero.
Dr. Rosenau, it's kind of a shot in the dark question, but since you raised TMX, how familiar are you at this point with how the construction of TMX may be impacting salmon habitat? I've been particularly concerned, just to frame this, by the fact that DFO has a memorandum of understanding with the Canadian Energy Regulator, so DFO is not monitoring for impacts on fish habitat.