Fisheries Committee on March 24th, 2021

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Lastly, as a current Vancouver Islander.... I was a Cape Breton Islander. Ransom Myers was a dear friend of mine, and we tried for years to protect the North Atlantic cod stocks while DFO practised a religion of believing there was a thing called the “spawning biomass”. We had paper fish but not real fish. I would have hoped that by now DFO's culture had changed.

Do you think that at this point we should move the promotion of aquaculture maybe to the Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food, and take it right away from DFO?

[Karen Wristen]

That would certainly be my preference. Agriculture is well placed to do that marketing and promotion. DFO needs to be instructed that its primary mandate is the restoration of wild salmon.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. May. That was almost right on time.

I think we'll all agree that you're an islander, regardless of which one it is.

We'll now go to Madam Gill, for two and a half minutes or less, please.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Mr. Di Cicco, you ended your presentation by saying that urgent action is needed. You also just mentioned that, of the many things that are to be done, we can only control a few of them anthropogenically.

What are you proposing? What should be done urgently in order to come up with solutions?

[Dr. Emiliano Di Cicco]

Are you referring to the situation about controlling diseases or promoting a rebound of Pacific salmon? Those are two different things. Which one are you referring to?

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Actually, my question was a general one so that you can talk more about what is most important, in your opinion.

You can send us documents later if you want to provide us with additional information.

[Dr. Emiliano Di Cicco]

As I said, as a fish shelter operator, I would say there definitely needs to be more monitoring and control of those operations, and, as Ms. Wristen also said, a definite transparency in the results, so we can take an informed decision on how to deal with diseases happening in the farms and how we can help in not having these agents infect wild fish either.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Ms. Wristen, Mr. Rosenau and Mr. Di Cicco, do you have any final comments to add about what we could do quickly about the salmon issue?

[Dr. Marvin Rosenau]

In my view, we're in an unprecedented crisis. We've had the Big Bar incident, where the Fraser River collapsed and the upper river stocks aren't able to get up there. This seems to be remediated, but boy, things have to change, otherwise our kids will have absolutely zero.

The problem that I tell my students is that this already happened in 1994-95, so it's like the passenger pigeon for coho. We had a million fish being caught in the Gulf of Georgia and now we have basically zero wild fish. This is a catastrophe that's unprecedented in modern Canadian history.

[Karen Wristen]

One solution might be to implement another of Justice Cohen's recommendations, which was to ensure that there is a position within DFO that is responsible for wild salmon, one position that is dedicated to the rebuilding of salmon stocks. I believe the House is currently working on the rebuilding provisions of the Fisheries Act. It's important that it be given life through an individual who will be responsible for ensuring that those provisions are implemented.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Gill.

We'll now go to Mr. Johns for two and a half minutes, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Dr. Di Cicco, in 2018, the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development published a report indicating that DFO “had not made sufficient progress in completing risk assessments for key diseases, which were required to assess the effects of salmon farming on wild fish.”

Would you agree with that assessment?

[Dr. Emiliano Di Cicco]

Yes, and they didn't do their job later either, when they did the nine CSAS reviews.

Again, by narrowing the scope and ignoring a lot of other issues, they didn't succeed in doing that even later.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Ms. Wristen, in the event that the federal government isn't successful in closing down open net-pen fish farms—for example, if the companies involved in the injunction right now win their case or different governments were to, say, reverse course on the transition away from open net-pen salmon farms—can you elaborate on what's at stake and what would happen if companies are able to restock farms that impact Fraser River sockeye?

[Karen Wristen]

We can only imagine that given the twin threats they'll face—the sea lice at 99% and the impaired survival at 89% from mouth rot—we could wipe out fully half of the recovery potential of Fraser River sockeye.

This year and next year, every single smolt that makes it down the river is of critical importance, so everything we can do to make sure they survive is essential. If those farms are restocked during the next two years, they will not be able to control their sea lice and they will have outbreaks of mouth rot, and it will be transmitted to those smolts. It's unthinkable that this would happen.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Dr. Rosenau, can you speak about the B.C. salmon restoration fund? You talked a lot about mitigation and the impacts. Thank you for talking about that and citing the important work that needs to be done.

The B.C. salmon restoration fund is $148 million over five years. The NDP has been saying that we need that actually every year for the next five years to remediate a lot of the damage to habitat. Do you agree with that?

[Dr. Marvin Rosenau]

I do agree with that. It hearkens back to the old salmonid enhancement days in the 1970s and 1980s. In my view, it's basically pocket change. British Columbia is salmon, and salmon is British Columbia.

I would add, though, and it goes back to my “heart of the Fraser” issue with the large islands, that if we can't stem the tide of some of these really serious habitat losses and that particular stretch between Hope and Mission, which is absolutely critical to Fraser River stocks.... We have Big Bar, we have the heart of the Fraser, we have sea lice and mouth rot. These are catastrophic things.

Although I know stuff about fish farms and I'm familiar with it, my focus again would be on the heart of the Fraser. Take some of that money, which DFO has been hesitant to do, and put it into that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Johns.

We'll now go to Mr. Zimmer, who is in the committee room, for five minutes or less, please.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thank you again. It's great to be back at the fisheries and oceans committee.

Dr. Rosenau, I was just actually at the heart of the Fraser a couple of weeks ago and saw some of the loss of habitat that you were referring to in some of your images. With the person who was there, we talked about the lack of understanding of what salmon habitat actually is. When you see even sturgeon in the waters at high levels, even in some of the forested areas, people just don't understand that's where fish are. That's critical to their survival.

I want to speak to you about the frustration with the lack of enforcement of some of the regulations along the Fraser. I've spoken to many members of the public fishery. One of their frustrations is watching the lack of implementation of regulations in some respects. You referred to this in your opening statement.

How would you fix this? You talk about enforcement, and again, implementation. How would you make it better?

[Dr. Marvin Rosenau]

Thank you very much. You must have been out with my friend, Dean Werk, who's a great guy.

I would say it comes from the top. There has to be a psychological change in regard to direction right from the executive down. We know back in the 1990s to about 2013, gravel removal was a big deal, ostensibly for flood protection. We knew it was just for the construction industry. The stewardship groups would meet with the local and middle managers, and we'd say, “There's no benefit for flood protection. You're destroying a bunch of habitat.” They would say, “Yes, but we got this direction from Ottawa. Ottawa says to take the gravel out. It's a political thing.” There are no secrets really. It has to come from the top, and the senior folks have to support the line staff, the people out in the field.

We have something known as subsection 35.2(2), which is “ecologically significant areas”. This is a great thing. It was put into play about two years ago. Again, it relates to the stuff you're talking about, and when we talk to the senior middle guys in DFO, they're saying, “That's not going to happen for two or three years because the senior folks at the executive are not going to support something like that.”

It's a psychological thing that has to change in Ottawa, I think.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

I think, from the many members I've spoken with.... I spoke with Brian Riddell, too, the former PSF chair, about what we do now. There's a need for that grander plan. We all have these different pieces that need to be put into one overall puzzle to fix this issue.

I was just going to ask you generally about the Big Bar slide. One thing we saw as members from B.C. was the inaction around the Big Bar slide. We were wanting to get in there and do some work on this removal of debris in the winter, when the water was low and the impacts would have been relatively small.

What would have been a different reaction? You said you thought it was mainly remediated at this point, but quick action was required and it just didn't happen. Maybe you can make some comments there.

[Dr. Marvin Rosenau]

I was interviewed by CBC, and I said, “You guys have to get out there.” It's not like I really knew what was going on more than a lot of people, but I have a lot of contacts inside DFO, and some of their line guys were saying, “We need to get going, guys.”

I guess what I've been seeing is a really fast reaction once they got going. We had folks give a presentation to my class, and it's quite amazing what they have done. I think there needs to be more, but that's my sense. It's a big deal.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

I would hope that we would have.... DFO needs to look at the way it has managed B.C. salmon. Some of these responses are needed not within months or years, but hours or days. We need a much more responsive DFO to these pressing issues.

I'll go back to Dr. Rosenau, just because you know the area so well, about this desire for a plan for B.C. salmon that is a holistic plan that goes beyond political cycles. I call it election-cycle economics. At times your election cycle in terms of projects like this.... The need is there, and it's a big ask. It's like engineering a huge building with all the details.

What would you say to that, Dr. Rosenau?

[Dr. Marvin Rosenau]

Notwithstanding some issues that people were maybe not satisfied with after the Cohen commission, you almost have to strike a commission to figure that out, because no individual can come up with it all. You're right; it's a big engineering project.