Fisheries Committee on May 5th, 2021

[Jason Hwang]

The main recommendation that I think we could borrow from is that they have a plan, so when new money comes in, they don't say, “Hmm. What are the priorities?” They can go to a plan that has been developed, a plan that has included their indigenous peoples, their technical people, their regional people, and say that these are the things that we have agreed are the important things to do on this priority basis.

They do a lot of things wrong down there too, so I don't want to make it sound as though they have it all figured out. However, the thing I like is that they have a plan that has been developed collaboratively that guides their investments and priorities.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Battiste. You were right on time.

We'll now go to Madame Gill for two and a half minutes or less, please.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Mr. Haskell as well.

What he said earlier caught my attention. He talked about budgetary measures, which are particularly important to salmon recovery, but he also talked about non-budgetary measures. I think he mentioned the decline in the stocks.

So I would like to know whether non-budgetary measures are needed to help with the salmon recovery. Also, could any measures undermine the efforts described in the budget along the same lines?

[Darren Haskell]

A lot of the things I want are just budgetary. I guess it would be the involvement of industry folks in terms of keeping in line with environmental guidelines that are put in place. We hear that it's always a balance between the environment and economics.

Economics plays a huge part in how environmental laws are followed in this area, and not only in this area but along the Fraser. A couple of years ago, economics played a big role in how the Mount Polley disaster was responded to.

The people on the ground who are being affected are really important in how this rolls out and how this response to the recovery of the salmon is implemented. Having the people on the ground involved right from the get-go, and in the planning, as Mr. Hwang has said, is specifically very important.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Actually, I think you mentioned the decline in the stocks, Mr. Haskell. I wanted to check whether that's what you said. In your presentation, I think you said we should plan to decrease the fishery.

Is that correct?

[Darren Haskell]

Yes, I did.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

So that would be something to consider. Without that measure, would recovery efforts be undermined?

[Darren Haskell]

Sorry; did you ask if it be detrimental if the fish aren't going to be taken?

Please repeat the question.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

If the level of the salmon fishery is not reduced, could that affect the recovery effort? That may be a truism, but I'm asking the question anyway.

[Darren Haskell]

Yes, definitely, that's what we've been saying for years. Because of the disaggregate management that's going on in the Fraser, it's already been a hindrance and a contributory to the decline. A lot of the stocks are past hope.

There's a saying, and the phrase is kind of sad, that “There's no hope past hope.” A lot of times you say it in terms of the management of the stocks. A lot of these upper Fraser stocks have to get through those mixed-stock fisheries. Early Stuart travel with chinook, and there are a lot of chinook fisheries. A lot of times, later in the year as well, if there are chum fisheries, then that has an effect on late-run sockeye. The mixed-stock fisheries and the aggregate management are definitely issues.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you for that.

Thank you, Madame Gill.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

We'll now go to Mr. Johns for two and a half minutes, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Hill, you talked about habitat protection and restoration. I really appreciated your comments there about the importance of investing in restoration, the critical piece of habitat protection and certainly about industry and its impacts.

I know of a project in my riding called Kus-kus-sum in the Comox Valley. The expectation was to buy some private land to protect the bottom of the Comox Valley, the estuary, a very important salmon-bearing area. It received a commitment from local government and from the local first nations and got the province on board, but the federal government didn't have any fund opportunity to buy conservation-critical property. It ended up that the province had to double down and cover the federal portion as well to save the project by buying this critical piece of salmon habitat.

Can you speak about the importance of the government creating conservation financing and other levels of government funding that can leverage foundations to save critical habitat?

[Aaron Hill]

Thank you, Mr. Johns. That's a really great question. It's an important issue.

There is an allocation in the budget in the billions of dollars—I forget the exact amount—for helping Canada meet recovery targets for land and water protection. That should definitely be applied to some critical salmon habitats. I want to provide you with an example from the lower Fraser.

I mentioned the issue of flood control and all of these flood control structures that are blocking salmon habitats. A lot of those are dikes built along sloughs that protect farmland and communities from flooding. One of the ways you can actually increase the habitat is that if you acquire land from farmers and other landholders and move the dikes back a little bit so that you give the river a little bit of room to flood naturally and it's still safe for communities, it opens up the habitat in a way that's really good for salmon. It gives them a safe nursery habitat that they can hang out in during that really vulnerable early life stage. That's—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I'm sorry to cut you off, but time is running out.

The previous federal funding for protected areas was for large swaths of land. Can you talk about how important it is to have targeted funds for smaller pieces too, of the kind you're talking about, that are critical in wetlands areas?

[Aaron Hill]

Yes, it's absolutely essential. I think that needs to be made clear to landholders and municipalities and to people who can actually benefit from that and really make it happen, because it is essential.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Johns.

We'll go to Mr. Mazier for five minutes or less, please.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for coming out this afternoon.

Mr. Zeman, you mentioned in previous testimony the impact that poaching is having on Pacific salmon. You specifically mentioned the concern with illegal netting. Do you believe the federal government should invest in fisheries monitoring for illegal harvesting, and if so, what are some of the key investments that you would like to see in order to make a difference?

[Jesse Zeman]

That's a great question, Mr. Mazier. Mr. Haskell actually referenced this as well.

Last summer we had the worst sockeye return in the Fraser River's history. We had 293,000 fish show up. We normally have 10 million. That's a 97% decline. It was so bad that the scientists in DFO recommended that we not run the test fishery.

With regard to those fish that were headed up towards Mr. Haskell, there was an illegal fishery on the mid-Fraser last year where over 10,000 of those fish were caught and killed. In that fishery as well, there were four steelhead from endangered interior Fraser steelhead that were caught and kept. We have not only one endangered run that's being imperilled; we have two. The number of Chilcotin fish this year will be 80 fish, so we potentially caught 5% of them in a matter of weeks in an illegal fishery. Tens of thousands of fish disappear on the Fraser every single year due to a lack of investment in enforcement. When we get down to stocks that have 50 or 80 or two fish, it's very easy to drive them to extinction.

The investment there is definitely in collaboration and education, and it's also in enforcement. Try as hard as they might, there are simply not enough folks in enforcement to do their job. I would say that supporting them and increasing enforcement on the river, and also building round table processes where everyone can see themselves in protecting fish would be highly valuable for the Fraser River.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Okay, great.

Mr. Haskell, you were mentioned in that. I don't know if you want to follow up. Do you have anything to add?

[Darren Haskell]

I think enforcement is important, especially in those areas that were mentioned. We hear directly from some of the enforcement officers in that branch at some of our meetings during the off season. The number of man-hours they put in to try to cover the very large areas they're assigned just burns these guys out.

I know a couple of the fisheries officers. I work with them. One is basically in Prince George, and he goes as far down as Williams Lake, as far north as close to Fort St. John, and out west towards Terrace. That's one area. I think they might have had a new officer this year. There might be two or three guys who are covering that entire area. That's just an example of the areas they cover. They've also taken from that office to assign people permanently until the Mount Polley investigation is done as well.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Wow. That's quite the area. I'm learning lots on this committee. I'm from Manitoba, so I'm a prairie boy learning lots about fish.

Mr. Hwang, there's been a lot of discussion about pinniped populations decimating juvenile Pacific salmon populations. How do you believe the government should manage this concern that is contributing to ongoing stock declines?

[Jason Hwang]

It's a provocative one for sure. It's a polarizing issue, and it's a difficult one. I think the evidence demonstrates that there is significant predation. At heart, I'm an ecologist. Salmon, pinnipeds, predators and competitors have lived together since—to use a first nations term—time immemorial.

The idea that we would go out there with a simple solution and make everything better is probably unlikely to be successful. The kinds of things that we're supporting at PSF is understanding what kind of human-caused changes we have introduced to the ecosystem. Things like booming logs in estuaries that make perfect haulouts for seals and sea lions in places where salmon concentrate are probably contributing to increased predation. We were thinking that the way forward on that, at least for us, is to support undoing the ecological changes that give these pinnipeds an advantage to try to restore the natural balance.