Fisheries Committee on May 5th, 2021

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Does anybody else want to comment on that?

You said it's controversial, and I'm getting that from other witnesses as well. I will throw this wide open. Has anybody helped to move that conversation forward instead of saying, “Oh, it's too touchy; we can't talk about it”, or researching it? Is there anybody effectively moving this whole conversation forward in good faith? That's my question.

[Jason Hwang]

I can give a brief response from the PSF side.

We've been moving it forward along the lines that I spoke to. Some of the studies that we did were partly identifying the degree of predation from pinnipeds on juveniles and adults. We are carrying on with studies now trying to understand where these things are happening so that we can understand management measures that could reduce the advantage.

I'll stop there, because I'm sure others want to weigh in.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Mazier. You've gone a little bit over time.

We'll now go to Mr. Cormier for five minutes or less, please.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you very much.

Thanks to all of the witnesses here today. Fin, it's great to see you again.

Look, I come from New Brunswick, so my knowledge of the B.C. salmon industry is a little limited, but I know some of it. As just a quick comparison, here in New Brunswick, for example, or in Atlantic Canada, the Atlantic salmon is also in danger, if I can say that. There have been a lot of things done in the last couple of years to make sure that the returns were coming back. For example, in Greenland, they have a commercial fishery. There's was some big talk with some conservation associations, just like you guys, and they were able to lower the take in commercial fishing in Greenland.

If I take the land-based aquaculture aspect, I think all of you agree to have more land-based aquaculture. That's great. Again, the catch-and-release policy is in effect in New Brunswick, and I think it was the way to go, but if we just remove the net from the water and move to a land base without dealing with commercial fisheries, how are we going to make sure that all of the fish are going to come back?

Do you know what I mean? I think it's certainly a great idea to move to a land base, but at the same time, Mr. Hwang, how do we deal then with commercial fisheries if they want to have more quota or they want to have different methods of fishing? Is this something that you're thinking about at the same time as you're thinking about moving to a land base?

[Jason Hwang]

Mr. Cormier, I'll just see if one of the other witnesses would like to start. I've used a lot of airtime here today and I think I've cut everybody off.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Does anybody else want to take that?

[Jesse Zeman]

I'll step in quickly.

I illustrated at the beginning the issues around endangered stock. The minister had set limits around fishing and a max mortality in Canadian fisheries of 5%. We don't even come close in terms of management. I think, for a number of these runs in population, fishing is simply out of the question at this stage of the game.

In terms of just aquaculture or just commercial fishing, we deal with this in the wildlife world as well. “Cumulative effects” are the words of the day, and as Mr. Hwang has said and as I'm sure all of my colleagues here will tell you, it's not one thing. We have habitat issues; we have changes in the marine environment; we have aquaculture. We have a whole bunch of things. It's going to be different in different places, and the trick is to get on with it and just start looking to solutions.

As Mr. Hwang has also mentioned, DFO is a “fishing first, fish second” agency right now in terms of culture, and it needs to be fish first. That needs to be the focus; otherwise, none of us are going to get to go salmon fishing.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Fin, I would like to have your comment on that.

[Fin Donnelly]

Well, I can't disagree with what's been said, and I actually see that Mr. Hill would like to get in his time.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Sure.

[Fin Donnelly]

I would add one thing, and it's with a couple of comments that have been made. I think the biggest thing we need is to work together. Certainly Washington state has identified that one of their biggest successes has been federal representatives and state representatives and city and first nation representatives all coming together. That is one of their biggest successes. That's what I think we need to point to, rather than looking at any of the divisive issues that are going to be polarizing and harder to act on.

You're absolutely right, Serge. We definitely need to look at the fishery and how it's managed and look at selective or—as Mr. Zeman has pointed out—mixed-stock impacts, and there are solutions there. There are many solutions, whether it's with habitat or community hatcheries. We need to look at those that we can come together on and agree on.

I'm sorry. I hope I've left a few seconds for Mr. Hill.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Go ahead, Mr. Hill.

[Aaron Hill]

I do think there are opportunities to fish selectively. We need to know that we're only taking the harvestable surplus of a known stock that has a healthy harvestable surplus. That's why we need that better catch monitoring: It's so that we know what we're catching and where we're catching it and that it's from a healthy stock. We need to transition our fisheries from the mixed-stock fisheries more to what are called “known-stock” fisheries, using selective technologies. There's a lot of opportunity there.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you very much for your great work. I hope there's some salmon left for me to fish for in those beautiful rivers and maybe swim with you, Fin, on the Fraser.

[Fin Donnelly]

I'll look forward to that, Serge.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thanks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Cormier.

We will now go to Mr. Bragdon for five minutes or less, please.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to each of the guests today. We so appreciate hearing the testimony that we have heard today.

I would like to address my first question to Mr. Donnelly.

Congratulations on your appointment, Mr. Donnelly. To be able to draw from both federal and provincial experience is great in the role you're serving in, for sure.

My colleague raised a couple of questions around the decision to transition away from open-net pens in the Discovery Islands, but my understanding from your testimony is that you were given no notification of that. I just want to follow up. When the B.C. government realized that there was no plan from the minister to support the transition that she had just initiated, how did the B.C. government respond?

[Fin Donnelly]

Thanks for the question, Mr. Bragdon. I'll add that I was also a municipal city councillor, so I have all three to look at there.

Yes, in terms of the Discovery Islands decision, the premier was very loud, and you heard about his concern for workers right away. I think that if there had been a package that came with the announcement of cancelling those licences, you would not have heard the concern from the province. Our concern is for those workers and for their communities. We have certainly heard from the mayors of those impacted communities as well.

I think that's one of the things that needs to be considered in this transition and as we go forward with the fallout of what has happened with the DI decision. That is why I think that there is a willingness for the province, for us, to work closely with the federal government as we move forward, because, as many of the witnesses have said, it is a series of cumulative impacts that are affecting wild salmon. We need to address all of those as much as we can with our management decisions in order to give salmon a fighting chance.

There's one thing that I would add, and I think others have asked this question: What more could be done? I think it's looking at our decisions in government through a watershed lens or a salmon lens. Once we do that, it will start to become much easier to see what the solutions are. Unfortunately, addressing the issues will still be complicated, because we've left it to this point, but using a salmon lens, certainly in the province, will start to help with those decisions.

I've heard from aquaculture industry representatives who say that absolutely they are focused as well at maintaining wild salmon and the wild salmon economy. There is an absolute interest in all of us getting this right and working together.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Donnelly.

In a follow-up to that, I think the more responsible approach would obviously be the proper and thorough engagement of all sectors, especially those that are going to be affected by these decisions on the front end, including municipalities and the indigenous communities that were affected, as well as the municipalities and the industry stakeholders and the farmers themselves.

With that in mind, do you believe that when the rug was pulled out from underneath them, there should have been a transition plan announced simultaneously, so that the sector, those whose livelihoods were directly affected and the communities that were directly affected didn't just have the announcement to deal with but had a transition plan to go with it? Are you encouraging your federal counterparts to come up with that plan in conjunction with you folks?

[Fin Donnelly]

We are, absolutely, Mr. Bragdon. I'll give a much shorter answer than I gave your colleague Mr. Calkins.

I don't know, Blaine; was it a compliment that I gave a long answer? The jury is out.

I think, Mr. Bragdon, that the way you have phrased the question is exactly right. That is ideally what is needed, and certainly industry has said that there's a willingness to work together with the province and the federal government and first nations to come to a solution that works. They realize that they've had management issues over the past. They have made many changes over the decades. They also know that in order to continue growth, which they have been unable to do, they need to change their practices.

That means everybody needs to come to the table to work at this solution. Whether we explore new technologies to allow growth in that sector is a question that has to be on the table for discussion.

We've heard loud and clear, and certainly in British Columbia, which is operating under DRIPA, that first nations are rights and title holders who are at the table. They are creating discussions and they have a concern about their territories. We, as the provincial government, have a concern about wild salmon and we want to see a flourishing aquaculture sector. We therefore need to get this right.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Bragdon.

We'll now go to Mr. Hardie for five minutes or less, please.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Zeman, earlier in your testimony you were saying that you would recommend separating DFO science from DFO. Why would you do that?

[Jesse Zeman]

I would say we should separate DFO science and species at risk from DFO management, and I think this is a reiteration; I can't remember who, but someone else mentioned it. Quite often there's a sense....

I've lived through the CSAS process around interior Fraser steelhead, in which it appeared that after we went through a peer review process, the ADMO's office changed the wording in the document. That illustrates the why. There seems to be a culture around hiding some of the science and the recommendations.

I think there needs to be a separation between state and church inside of DFO, in the sense that science tells you what's available for harvest and what you should do or shouldn't do. That should be public information. After that, management can make a decision, but hiding these documents and hiding the paper trail that science provides is not, I think, in the public interest, and it's certainly not in the interest of wild salmon.

That's why I would make that reference, for sure.