Fisheries Committee on Oct. 21st, 2020

[Colin Sproul]

No. I don't think sending lobster gear to the bottom of the ocean is justified by conservation in any way.

Here's what I think is the most important argument to make on it. Fishermen went to a closed lobster breeding ground and removed untagged lobster gear illegally set under current Canadian law, brought it to the Meteghan DFO detachment and placed it in the evidence locker. All of that took place under the careful over-watch of hundreds of RCMP, coast guard and DFO personnel on ships and helicopters, and no charges were laid nor any enforcement action was taken.

I understand a lot of people wouldn't agree with that—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I think it's disgusting, and I'll give you the next question, Mr. Sproul.

[Colin Sproul]

Can I finish my statement?

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Sure, if it's quick, go ahead.

[Colin Sproul]

What I would say is that a lot of people don't agree with that, so let's look at the other side of the question. Chief Sack came to Saulnierville and issued lobster licences, set up traps and issued tags that aren't covered under any existing legal framework, all under the same careful over-watch. No enforcement action was taken against the chief or any of the moderate livelihood fishers either by the same people.

I think that no matter which side of that argument you're on, we should all be able to agree that the onus is on Minister Jordan.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I agree. It should be on Minister Jordan, and it's disappointing that the fishers were pointing the blame at the indigenous fishers. They should have been pointing the finger at Minister Jordan. It falls at the government's feet. They have continually sent negotiators to the table without a mandate. They've dragged their feet in supporting the nation so that it can assert its right.

The Sipekne'katik are asserting their constitutional right to self-governance rights and the implementation of a lobster fishery management plan, which is their plan, and they are implementing it. It's currently discussing it with Canada, on the invitation on a nation-to-nation basis, which is the right form in terms of where that conversation is held.

Do you support that this current study of the standing committee must not undermine any discussions that the nation is currently having and engaged in with Canada?

[Colin Sproul]

I think what's most important to understand is that, post-Marshall 1999, this very same committee engaged in a study and sent a set of recommendations to the House of Commons on how to implement moderate livelihood rights. They listened to testimony from a lot of people from all sides of the industry from all across Atlantic Canada.

I believe the resolution to all of the issues here, for both of our communities, is evident in Marshall and its clarification. I respect the decisions and would call on the government to implement Marshall. All of our solutions are already here. They just need to be recognized by the government.

A key one for me is the statement made by the committee, which was chaired by Wayne Easter, who still sits in the Liberal caucus, and this is what the committee recommended:

[A]s licences are transferred to aboriginal groups, particularly in the lobster fishery, a way must be found to prevent excessive localized fishing effort in order to avoid adversely affecting the health of stocks, particularly in sensitive areas such as spawning and nursery grounds. No greater fishing effort should be allowed than is already the case, including at the local level.

We can see that a lot of these questions and problems were explored 21 years ago, but they weren't acted on.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

It's funny that you bring up that study. The committee presented a report on the Marshall decision and its implications for the management of Atlantic fisheries back in December 1999. That report found that DFO was caught off guard and didn't have a contingency plan.

Knowing that the Mi'kmaq fishers would be on the water and threatened by commercial fishers, we're sitting here in 2020 and Mi'kmaq fishers are still being threatened and intimidated. Traps are cut and a building has been burned down. In the last 21 years, do you get the impression that DFO has developed a plan to keep the Mi'kmaq fishers' interests safe when they're on the water, or on the land actually as well, or has DFO been caught off guard again?

[Colin Sproul]

They've certainly been caught off guard again, but there's no excuse for it, Mr. Johns, and here's why. It's because, as we've heard previous witnesses from within the indigenous communities say, they've been raising these issues with government for years, with successive governments, as has the industry. For three years, we've lobbied extensively Minister Jordan and Minister Blair and have raised the public safety concerns.

Let's be clear on what is really at the centre of this issue. Over the last three years, Justin Trudeau's cabinet, as a tactic at the negotiating table, has stopped enforcing existing Canadian fishery policy and law because they don't want to sour the mood at the table. That lack of law enforcement is precisely what led to the chaos and the animosity between fishermen who have peacefully coexisted.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

A committee is not “nation to nation”. I just want to underscore that. You understand that, do you?

[Colin Sproul]

Yes, and I've been clear in my statements that I think the government should and certainly can have whatever nation-to-nation conversations the nations desire, and I don't believe we have any part in that.

What I believe we have a part in is conversations around the sustainability of the lobster resource, which affects the long-term sustainability of coastal communities in Nova Scotia. There are precedents for the government to have nation-to-nation conversations and still take advice from the industry, the Northwest Atlantic Fisheries Organization being the best example, whereby the minister sits with other nations and directly negotiates and, in a side room, she takes advice from people from all parts of the fishing industry, indigenous and non-indigenous alike.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Johns. Your time is up.

We'll now go to the second round of questioning.

We have Mr. Calkins for two and a half minutes or less.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Thank you, Chair. I believe Mr. Mazier was going to take these questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Okay.

Time is ticking, Mr. Mazier.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Thank you very much to the presenters this evening. This has been great. I'm from the Prairies, from Manitoba. Talk about a fish out of water.... It has been quite the experience to be learning about all of this.

I've been watching in horror what's unfortunately happening to your province and your communities. Colin, I can see the pain and frustration in your community and what you and your community are going through. It's terrible to see that. For a person who works the land myself, I totally understand where you're coming from in trying to protect your resources and make sure that everything is sustainable. Thank you for that.

My question is for you. Why do you think this government is ignoring the situation? What has to be done? What happened, how many years ago.... We've talked about 21 years, but this certainly has escalated in probably the last six months or even in the last one or two months, in going after the lobsters that are going to be the next season, in going after the golden goose, basically.

Why do you think the government is ignoring that? Why do you think the minister is not acting? What do you think is going on there?

[Colin Sproul]

I started to detail it earlier. Really, at the core of the problem is that the government has good intentions to reach rights reconciliation agreements with the nations, but the problem is that as a tactic during the negotiations they stopped enforcing the law. That only empowered people to keep fishing outside of regulations. It has obviously been a failed tactic. What we've seen come of that is 12 nations get up from the table and not one sit down. I think it's a really obvious sign that things aren't working out here.

We also need to recognize the fishery access that already exists in the communities. I want people in first nations to be allowed to fish. I care about social, economic and environmental justice for all fishers, regardless of heritage, but the current state is not producing Mi'kmaq fishermen. We need to change the process. What I find most immoral about what the government has done so far is that after 21 years of no legitimate final reconciliation of these rights for Mi'kmaq fishers, they're only attempting to do more of the same, and it's only going to drive more division.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Sproul.

Thank you, Mr. Mazier. Your time is up.

We'll now go to Mr. Cormier for two and a half minutes, please.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Good evening.

Mr. Cloutier, I'm glad to see you back at the committee. My question is for you.

Explain to me why you would be concerned if, for example, first nations in your area were allowed to fish for food outside of the commercial fishing seasons.

I would like you to answer as quickly as possible, so that I have time to ask more questions.

[O'neil Cloutier]

Good evening, Mr. Cormier. I'm pleased to meet with you.

Fisheries and Oceans Canada and all of the scientists have always told us that we should not exploit a species for too long, to give it time and opportunity to reproduce and live properly. For lobster, it's the same thing. It is very clear that we must not exploit this species when it is in a vulnerable period.

In the Chaleurs Bay—north of it for Gaspesians and south of it for New Brunswickers—summer and fall are periods when lobsters can moult or lay their eggs. So, based on the principle that we must ensure the sustainability of the species, we must refrain from fishing during these periods.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Perfect, thank you.

I can attest to the collaboration with first nations in my region. I want to know about the collaboration in your region over the years or the inclusion of first nations, for example, in discussions regarding fisheries and conservation. In my region, I know that there's a great deal of collaboration on both sides in terms of conservation efforts. What about your region?

[O'neil Cloutier]

As you know, there are three Mi'kmaq indigenous bands in our region, as well as the Maliseet of Viger first nation. We all participate in the advisory committee to develop proper rules and measures for the exploitation of this resource. We meet every year, and everyone comes to the table. In 2006, we decided that we needed to take many measures to preserve the resource, and the indigenous communities agreed. Today, they're reaping the benefits.

In our view, collaboration is easy. I'll provide an example. In 2020, the advisory committee decided to entrust the co-management of the 2021 advisory committee to an indigenous group, the Maliseet of Viger. This group agreed to manage the advisory committee with Fisheries and Oceans Canada. In 2019, I was the co-manager.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Okay, thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Cormier. Your time is up.

We'll now go to Madame Gill, for two and a half minutes or less, please.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Mr. Cloutier and Ms. Canet, I would have liked to hear you talk about conservation.

I want to hear your views and ideas about the possibility of having resource management and conservation models for both indigenous and non-indigenous communities. These models would share the same goals, but would differ based on the values, knowledge and principles of each community.

[O'neil Cloutier]

In the Gaspé region, I think that we all, including the indigenous groups, understand that we need a single management model and that Fisheries and Oceans Canada should be responsible for implementing it. The reason for this is quite simple. There are four indigenous bands in the Gaspé region, one of which is located in the north. If these bands decide to establish their own management model, in other words, to opt for self-management, it would be difficult to share the territory. In addition, non-indigenous fishers would be caught between different management models. It would be very difficult to implement.

This is why we believe that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans must take on the responsibility entrusted to it, as long as the various groups agree, of course. Right now, I think that we're managing this fairly well. The goal is to avoid any negative impact on the exploitation of the stocks. That's very important. The negative impact must be set aside in any conflict. We must ensure the sustainable development of this resource. We're convinced that this is the best way to help indigenous communities.