Evidence of meeting #32 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was reid.
A video is available from Parliament.
Regional Director General, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
The question makes the premise that tubbing is causing a conservation concern, and that's not the case. It's not the intention, and it's not the nature of our concern—
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB
You fail to make the point that you have an enforcement issue. I'm a former conservation officer. I'm a former national park warden. I understand fully the idea of leaving things marked so that they are easily accessible for law enforcement. You've told me that you've had a whopping two out of 41 cases, on average. If it's not a case of conservation concern—and it clearly is not, because size does not matter when it comes to prawns for conservation, as has already been admitted here—so there must be a reason for doing this that meets some type of conservation rationale or some other type of rationale for enforcement.
I've heard that it's a whopping two cases out of 41 charges that are laid on average every year. Then I've heard some startling things coming out of the mouths of some of the people here, saying that the regulatory changes were made to meet the needs of enforcement. I thought perhaps maybe we would just meet the needs of the fishermen to the best of our ability and let them carry on with their lives and their livelihoods.
I guess the question I have is this: Do the fishers refuse or remain non-compliant when they're asked to thaw a tub?
Regional Director General, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
There have been no regulatory changes made. These regulations have been in place since 1993. When inspection of their product is requested, the fishermen are compliant. Nicole can speak to that more specifically.
This isn't a question about whether people are resisting the enforcement or the inspection. It's about how to produce the product in a way—
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB
But you just told me, you just told this committee, that it's not a conservation issue, that there is nothing threatening the populations. I have heard from Mr. Davis that the changes are being made to meet the needs of enforcement. I've heard your enforcement official basically say that there's a whopping two fines levied every year for not meeting the size requirements. I've also heard your enforcement person say that most of the enforcement actually happens when the prawns are live and not when they're in the tub environment at all.
I mean, we're just going around in circles here. Nothing that you're saying is adding up or making any sense to justify a rationale for what's happening here. I'm asking very basic questions.
Maybe you can answer this question. How long does it take, on average, for a fisherman, when asked, to thaw a tub? How long does that take?
Regional Director General, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
If possible, I'd like to address the issue you raised before, around conservation, because I think that's the key.
We don't need a conservation concern before we take action to protect the sustainability of a fishery. We don't wait—
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB
Are you saying that size...? These are the only prawns in Canada that are regulated by size for conservation. Everybody who knows anything about prawns and their life cycle knows that size isn't usually the determining factor in the ability of prawns to reproduce. They start out as males for the first couple of years of their life and switch to being females. That's why we throw berried females back in the water when we're fishing them. Everybody knows that life cycle.
You can't say it's conservation. That was the very first question I asked: Is there any indication that prawn populations are in decline because of anything that's happening? Nobody said yes.
Regional Director General, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
What I'm trying to—
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Richard Bragdon
Thank you, Mr. Calkins.
Ms. Reid, you have time for a very quick answer. You have about 10 seconds.
Regional Director General, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Size limit is an important part of ensuring conservation, but it's not the only measure we put into place. It's one factor of many that we use in order to ensure a sustainable fishery.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Richard Bragdon
Thank you, Ms. Reid.
Mr. Morrissey, you have five minutes or less.
Liberal
Conservative
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I can't believe you forgot a New Brunswicker just like you, but it's totally okay.
To all of the witnesses, you're saying that there's a lot of frustration. Well, of course there is. We're getting calls from those fishermen. We're getting calls from the industry. They're trying to understand what happened. So far, I haven't gotten any answers.
Let me come back to this. You said that there were 41 violations and only two were on size limits related to those violations. Is that correct?
Acting Regional Director, Conservation and Protection, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
That's correct.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Okay, so you mean that for only two size violations, you want to change fishing that was going on for many, many years in a matter of, I think, two months.
I'm not sure if you know this, but my father was a fisherman all his life. Changing the way you fish doesn't happen overnight. You need time to organize yourself. You need time to prepare your gear and everything. For example, here on the east coast we're fishing lobster. If there is a size violation, we fine those people and take some of them to court. We don't change the way we measure lobster the year afterward.
Why, if there were only two violations like that, do you want to change a process that's been going on for years? It seems there is no conservation issue whatsoever. Why are you changing the rules all of a sudden, giving the industry no time to prepare themselves? It would be like asking them to mow their lawn with a snow blower during the summer. It would take time to adapt, right?
Regional Director General, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
If I can respond to that, the answer is that we're not asking for a change. What we've said is that this is the practice that's been in place, the expectation that's been in place all along, so we don't see a change. What's changed is the increased use of tubbing. That means we need to make sure we reflect on how to properly inspect those products. We're not asking for a change in fishing. We've come up with a protocol to allow for the use of tubbing. We continue to want to enforce the size limits as an important part of conservation. That hasn't changed. None of that has changed.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
You have inspected those prawns for many years. You still want to change the way that they use tubbing, if I may say so.
Regional Director General, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I would say that what Nicole said is that the use of tubbing was very uncommon and there are other ways that the prawns are kept either alive or frozen, such as finger packed and frozen, that are easily and readily available. Those are very easy to inspect. It's just the tubbing that's hard to inspect, because the prawns are hidden in the ice and you need to be able to thaw them. It's that part of it. If there's going to be an increase in prevalence because of the change in markets, then we need to make sure that practices and protocols allow us to inspect the product. That's really what we're interested in.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
You said that you met with the industry in February. The fishing season is starting in May, right?
Regional Director General, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
That's right.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Again, how can industry members prepare themselves for those changes in a short period of time? For some of them, I'm not sure how long the season is, but sometimes fishermen are making their living in one or two months. Don't you think that a last-minute decision like that should be planned way ahead of time? I've seen some decisions on the east coast here that are also very problematic. Why are you making decisions like that or trying to change something in a period of two weeks? It seems to happen a lot with this department.
Regional Director General, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I would say first of all that there hasn't been a change—this practice has long been in place—and second of all that the industry has responded appropriately. We have gotten agreement on the protocol and we have a way forward.
The fishery has started, and you're right that it is a very short fishery, so we're glad that we have the protocol in place to respond to the interests for this year.
Liberal
Regional Director General, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
For next year we need to continue to work with industry on some of the issues that Neil raised. If tubbing is the preferred packaging, then let's talk about what that looks like and how we can come up with methodologies going forward to make sure that the fish are readily inspected and to determine what that looks like. There are going to be conversations with industry, and I'm sure we can find a solution.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
I think my time is pretty much up, Mr. Chair, according to my timer.
