Fisheries Committee on Nov. 16th, 2020

[Chief Darlene Bernard]

I think that in the process we really do have to engage our communities.

Both bands are committed in Abegweit. There are only two bands in P.E.I. We are committed to looking at it together in unity to build that framework. We have L'nuey, which is our rights-based initiative. They are going to be helping us with this to be able to build that framework around this on Prince Edward Island. We are small so we can do things a little bit differently here. We can work together and really come up with a very strong plan moving forward.

I don't know if I answered your question.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

I was seeing it more broadly. I was talking about the involvement of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. What do you think the ideal process would be? Of course, there's a micro level and a macro level.

[Chief Darlene Bernard]

Okay.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

You can answer too, Chief Ginnish.

[Chief Darlene Bernard]

I would just want to say quickly about DFO's role, that it is to work with us to help us develop our enforcement capabilities and our science ability and to work with them to make sure that our waters are being fished safely and following the regulations that we put forward.

In other words, I don't expect them to be cutting my traps.

[Chief George Ginnish]

I would ask that we actually have discussions with Fisheries about treaty access. That hasn't happened with our communities.

DFO needs to change its mandate. It does not address moderate livelihood, and that needs to happen in collaboration with us. So far it's the Jones rights reconciliation agreement that is on the table and it has no latitude for movement. It asks as part of the signing process that we agree to not assert our treaty rights for another 10 years if we sign onto those agreements.

We have not treaty fished for 21 years, and to ask us not to do that for another 10 years while dangling some additional moneys in front of us is an insult. We have raised this issue with the minister and from our perspective we say lift that non-assertion clause in those agreements—it's been 20 years—and sit down to really begin to talk about treaty access and including our members.

Our political organization, MTI, is engaging with our communities now to see who wants to fish, what skills people have and what skills we need. We know what our challenges are in terms of poverty in our community. It's a reality. This is a right. We want to be able to support our members to have a livelihood, to support their families, to feel good about practising a traditional skill.

When you look at the Miramichi River 150 years from Confederation, our community had salmon galore that filled our rivers. That salmon was fished commercially by everyone but the three first nations on the river. It was fished to the point of extinction. Our communities were never allowed to take a fish and sell it.

That really is hard to swallow. My grandfather had a commercial licence. He could catch fish finally in the 1960s to feed his family, but he was not allowed to sell it. It was years later before there were finally court cases that would have held up our right to be able to fish to support our families.

We have come from a hard—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Chief Ginnish.

Thank you, Madam Gill.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

We are at the end of our time, but if I don't hear any objections from the committee, we can go for another 25 minutes before we have to come to a dead stop.

I'm not hearing any objections, so we'll now go to Mr. Johns for six minutes or less, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank Chief Bernard and Chief Ginnish for their important testimony.

Chief Ginnish, it's good to see you again. I met you with the fisheries and oceans committee when we landed in your community. Thank you so much for hosting us a few years back.

You've been really vocal the last few months about the systemic racism that's been directed at the Mi'kmaq, especially when it comes to the Sipekne'katik . You've also been speaking out about the justice system and the systemic racism that's there. Chantel Moore was from my riding of Courtenay—Alberni. I want to, and the Nuu-chah-nulth people also would like to, extend our gratitude to you for speaking out about the injustices, not just to her but to indigenous people.

On the theme of systemic racism, we've heard at this committee that many indigenous people have to just break the law for the right law to be put in place. I would imagine that this leads to greater instances of criminalizing indigenous people who are simply practising their inherent rights. Can you talk about the systemic racism and how you see these repeated sets of biases that the government is bringing to the table? What needs to change?

I'll start with Chief Ginnish and then I'll go to you, Chief Bernard.

[Chief George Ginnish]

I'll keep it short.

Absolutely. It is a reality. Our first nation has been on the river here—Metepenagiag, Natoaganeg, Esgenoopetitj—for over 5,000 years. We've always shared. It's really bothersome that we aren't extended that same courtesy. It seems that we have to continue to fight the battle for equity, for access, to be able to look after our....

I know this is off topic, but we've been talking with the Premier of New Brunswick about the need for an inquiry into the justice system. Nova Scotia had the Donald Marshall inquiry. Our reality is that many of our people, because of their poverty, are making bad choices in regard to how they survive. They are prosecuted for that and they cannot afford legal. We are putting forward a number of things with the Province of New Brunswick to address that racism in the justice system, that systemic racism, that exclusion and marginalization.

A number of our people will reach out. They will try to work outside. Many times they will come back with stories like, “Geez, I just wanted to work. I got told to go back to the reserve. They asked me what I was doing trying to take a job away from one of their family members.” I mean, that's a real struggle. That is a constant reality for many of our people. That hurts. I feel really bad for our young people, who aren't willing to take the chance and challenge this really bad behaviour.

I'll leave it at that and let Chief Bernard in.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Chief Bernard, can you also expand on what you've seen in terms of the last 20 years—the 10 years under the Harper government and now the five years under the Liberal government and the promises for change? Can you elaborate on the history of that over the last 20 years?

[Chief Darlene Bernard]

Well, what I'll say is this. To me, all you have to do is look at the last three months and see what happened in Nova Scotia to see that there is systemic racism in our system. You can't deny that. I think the people who don't want to come out and say there's systemic racism are denying it to themselves. It's there. We need to deal with it.

I want to read this excerpt, because I think it kind of brings us back to what I wanted to say:

In order to achieve the equitable and mutually satisfactory resolution we are seeking, the Government of Canada must commit the political will, including the necessary resources, to the initiatives we are developing. It is imperative that the Government of Canada understands that it does not have the answers, it cannot meet the challenges presented by the Marshall decision unilaterally. In order to avoid further unrest or further litigation the Government of Canada must accept that the process has to be truly cooperative. Through Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs, Canada must work with us as a good faith partner on a nation to nation basis to uphold the constitution.

So implement section 35. I think that just speaks to what needs to happen.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Here where I live, in Nuu-chah-nulth territory, we've seen the government knowingly go to the table empty-handed, spending $19 million just on government lawyers fighting the Nuu-chah-nulth on the right to catch some fish. Do you actually believe that the government is sending their negotiators to the table with a mandate to work with the Mi'kmaq on their moderate livelihood and their treaty right?

[Chief Darlene Bernard]

No.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you Chief Bernard.

Chief Ginnish, could you also comment?

[Chief George Ginnish]

I would say no.

[Chief George Ginnish]

When you have a negotiator who comes to your chiefs and says, “Here's the package. Here's the deal. Take it or leave it,” I don't see how that is negotiation. I don't see how that begins to address moderate livelihood.

Many of our communities, because of the dire poverty, had signed onto these initial agreements 21 years ago in the hope of helping build our economies, and 21 years later, why is it taking so long?

I've shared a stack of documents as well with the participants here. They weren't available today, but it speaks to our efforts over the last 10 years to try to get ministers to the table to talk about this. This isn't in the last three months. This has been going on constantly.

[Chief Darlene Bernard]

The negotiations should be done by CIRNAC.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you. We've now run over time.

We'll go to Mr. Bragdon for five minutes or less please.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Chief Bernard and Chief Ginnish, for taking the time to be with us this evening. We appreciate your being here and joining us.

I have couple of questions.

We've heard this from witness after witness, and it has come up quite repeatedly and has been mentioned already in what you provided to us this evening. There is a growing frustration around the absence of direct communication, as it were, with the minister and with the department, as it relates to the indigenous fishery as well as to fisheries in all of Atlantic Canada. There is growing frustration, obviously amongst the indigenous communities but also amongst the commercial fisheries, who feel there hasn't been proper consultation or communication, or bringing people to a table of dialogue. I would like to get your thoughts as they relate to this.

Do you feel that there has been adequate communication with indigenous communities as well as with other stakeholders and interested parties such as the commercial fisheries in this area?

If I could have brief comments from both of you, that would be great.

I'll start with you, Chief Bernard.

[Chief Darlene Bernard]

I've had conversations with the P.E.I. Fishermen's Association in Prince Edward Island. We've had our talks. I've talked to DFO on Prince Edward Island, and I pretty much was saying that we really need to sit down and have a discussion around this, because I think they need to know what their role is. I don't think it's clear what their role is. Look at what happened in Nova Scotia. Cutting traps of the livelihood fishery was not their role. That was wrong. They shouldn't have been doing that.

With the RCMP, I think we have to be careful. They have to know what their role is in all of this in helping to protect the Mi'kmaq, because this is about protecting the Mi'kmaq when we are asserting our right to a moderate livelihood.

I've talked to them. I think that what really has to happen, though, is that DFO has to be taken out of the negotiations. They shouldn't be negotiating our rights when they're trying to enforce fisheries. CIRNAC needs to be brought to the table. Carolyn Bennett needs to be the one who's setting the parameters and appointing negotiators to come and talk with us.

We want to talk to the negotiators. This whole thing about the RRAs, rights and reconciliation agreements, those are nothing but a slap in the face to first nations. At the end of the day, if they have an envelope of money and they're holding it up to try to get us to sign these agreements that are detrimental to our rights, that can't happen. We can't be signing those things. That money should just be given to the first nations so that we can continue to develop our commercial fisheries and our livelihood fishery.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Chief Bernard.

Chief Ginnish.

[Chief George Ginnish]

I would agree with Chief Bernard that in these discussions, DFO has clearly shown they're not capable of negotiating, and they're in conflict anyway. They're supposed to be enforcing. They're supposed to be regulating. I agree with Chief Bernard that we need to meet with Canada. That is what needs to happen here. We need to meet with the Minister of Indigenous Affairs.

That's where this needs to begin. There's a spot there for the Minister of Fisheries, but no more trying this treaty—

[Chief Darlene Bernard]

Obviously, they're struggling.